Christians you are on Trial Bring your Bible and Defend your self

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dauer

OOC: Perhaps it would be helpful to understand the traditional role of the moshiach in Judaism, as it differs greatly from that of messiah in Christianity. If a trial such as this did ever happen in any way shape or form, the early Christians would have been privy to such information.

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.

this is one reason I feel so much like a Jew inside sometimes, for the very fact that Rome started the whole godman mess. maybe I am part Jew and have just been scattered.
I know there is prophecy of Jesus as the sacrifice. (but I am at work and cannot get to the scriptures)
But I think it is sad that some Jews dont even believe that the N.T. with Jesus even happened. In that respect Rome did what it was supposed to do by preserving it, just with the wrong intent and ideas.

What About Jesus?

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

This Jesus is speaking of the eternal kingdom, not a physical kingdom. This is during the 1000 years of peace which is to come, when Jesus will reign over all nations.
Not only will he fulfill and lead in the eternal Kingdom, but all phsyical kingdoms will be left in ruins.
He most certainly did fulfil his mission because He lives within my heart. This peace they are looking for is inside the heart. Not some man made physical peaceful notion of a messiah. That person will be a FRAUD!
tHAT IS NEVER going to happen again.

[Basstian]

*note* I thank you bandit for coming forward as a defendant ant not a prosecuter I would ask that you remeber that this trial is taken Place in the House of God and I would like to Discourage you from using angry words like God d** When we Both Know it was Roman damned.

Defence I count over 45 prophecies in my Old testament pointing towards the redeemer of Isreal the messiah as us Christians call Him. Jesus fulfiled every one of them as far as an eternal Kingdom
Isaiah spoke of a New heavon and a new eart when all flesh would Come to worship Him from one new moon to another and one sabbath to another
JUst because He Did not wipe out the Roman army does not mean this Kingdom Doesnt exist
Jeremiah siad the law would be written in a man heart in the new covenant How do you as a judge read what Has been written in my heart.

Tell Me Now Do your traditions Fall in line with the Laws Handed to you from Moses
Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

We must then Do away with these Modren Doctrines and go back to the original letter of the Law
The Statutes and ordinances we can both agree have become out dated as civil law we no longer gather manna as our fathers Did we no longer live in the incampments of our fathers.
But the Law The Ten that where Chiseled in stone prove we have been led from them and I will admit my Guilt
Also ask yourself is Handing a Jew over to be murdered By the Romans who Found Know fault in Him not murder?
I thank God he was the Lamb of God and that his death was part of Gods plan so that this Sin will not be held against you. But with It comes the offer of your Slavation.
As far as the Golden Calf ? You My friends must be saving for that build seeing the money changers in the temples and the Fine adornments you wear. My only Question is when will you like are Fathers Decide that the Time is Right to Forge this Idol ?

[Bandit]

*note* I thank you bandit for coming forward as a defendant ant not a prosecuter I would ask that you remeber that this trial is taken Place in the House of God and I would like to Discourage you from using angry words like God d** When we Both Know it was Roman damned.

godMAN Basstian, Not god da** godman, GODMAN is one of the terms they all made up to try and keep Jesus alive and prove things that they did not understand at the time.
but now it all makes perfect sense to me. It had to happen that way to preserve the truth for our day. Do you see that?
We dont have to stay stooped in Romes tradititions.

the hardest part of the trial is trying to stay in the year 30 AD, LOL, because we already know what happened and Jesus is the victor! and so are we!.
Yes then, lets go through each of the prophecies one at a time to prove our case and that we are not guilty.

[Basstian]

LOL my apologies this is what happens when you read posts at 3am in the morning. I thought you were really getting Fired up about it lol

sorry and again *blush*

godMAN Basstian, Not god da** godman, GODMAN

(Basstain askes for a recess till his Brain functions better lol)

[Faithfulservant]

Prosecution

Listen! You heretics have forgotten the words of Torah:

Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!" [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst."

Defense: The modern Jews appeal to this passage as justifying their rejection of Jesus Christ. But He possessed all the characteristics of a true prophet, and He was so far from alienating the people from God and His worship that the grand object of His ministry was to lead to a purer, more spiritual and perfect observance of the law.

A dreamer of dreams - One that pretends God hath revealed himself to him by visions or dreams. Giveth a sign or wonder - That is, shall foretell some strange and wonderful thing.......

Many have been witness to the signs and wonders of the Messiah our Lord Jesus Christ. They witnessed his birth.. his ministry..his miracles...his being witnessed of by John the baptist who was the voice in the wilderness..the transfiguration.. his death which was foretold in Psalms and Isaiah.. and his resurrection.



You have followed your dreamer of dreams into worship of himself, a man-god, a god whom your ancestors did not know. He gave you signs of wonder and you failed the test. You succombed and turned from God. Do you not know as it says in Torah:

Defense: Objection Heresay..I followed Gods mandates on how to know a false prophet and I dont see how I failed the test.

Numbers 23:19 G-d [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Defense: "Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and act wisely, and shall do judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely. And this is His name by which He shall be called, JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
(Jer 23:5-6)

we will consider the question, "Is Jesus also Jehovah, Yahweh?"
We will start with the above verses. There are two key points to look at in Jer 23:5-6, 'a righteous Branch' and the multiple application of the name 'Jehovah, or Yahweh'.

We know from the genealogy of Jesus Christ, and from the Gospels, that He (Jesus of Nazareth), is the 'righteous Branch.'
"The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."
(Mat 1:1)

We see in Jer 23:5-6, 'Jehovah' speaking and calling the 'righteous Branch' 'JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.' We know that 'Jehovah' is the name of the God of Israel, Our Almighty and Eternal God.
" And God said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, Jehovah the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My title from generation to generation."
(Exo 3:15)
"And you shall not profane My holy name. But I will be holy among the sons of Israel. I am Jehovah who is sanctifying you, "
(Lev 22:32)
"For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them, says Jehovah. "
(Jer 29:9)
We find Our Great God naming 'the righteous Branch', Jesus Christ, as 'JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.' This names Him as God Almighty and Eternal, since the name/title 'JHVH, or YHWH' was only applied to the God of Israel, 'The Great I AM', by the Spiritually inspired Hebrew writers of Testament.

Further proof is evidenced by comparing Isa 61:1-3 and Luke 4:17-21.
"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on Me; because Jehovah has anointed Me to preach the Gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to preach the acceptable year of Jehovah and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; to appoint to those who mourn in Zion, to give to them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the mantle of praise for the spirit of heaviness; so that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that He might be glorified."
"For I Jehovah love judgment-"
(Isa 61:1-3 & 8)
We find that Isa 61:8, names the speaker of verses 1-3 as 'Jehovah'. He states that He has been anointed by Jehovah to preach the Gospel. Again, we find 'JHVH, or YHWH' being assigned by God's inspiration to two different beings. In the Gospel of Luke we find this corresponding entry concerning Jesus,
"And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And unrolling the book, He found the place where it was written, 'The Spirit of the Lord is on Me; because of this He has anointed Me to proclaim the Gospel to the poor, (etc).'- "
"And He began to say to them, Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your ears."
(Luke 4:17-19 & 21)
With these verses, Jesus names Himself the anointed 'Jehovah' of Isa 61:1-3, which in turn names Him God.

More Scriptural proof that Jesus is 'Jehovah' occurs in Isa 48:16-17 & Zec 2:10-11,
"Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning. From its being, I was there; and now the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit, has sent Me. So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God -"
"Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion. For lo, I come, and I will dwell in your midst, says Jehovah. And many nations shall be joined to Jehovah in that day, and shall be My people; and I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that Jehovah of Hosts has sent me to you. "
We again see the name 'Jehovah' being used to indicate two individual beings. We have 'Jehovah' speaking and being sent by 'the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit'. In other words, 'Jehovah your God' is sent by the 'Lord Jehovah and His Spirit'. The 'sent One' is identified in the Gospels,
"And He (Jesus) said to them, I must proclaim the gospel, the kingdom of God, to other cities, because I was sent on this mission,"
(Luke 4:43)
"Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me."
(John 8:42)
" do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I (Jesus) said, I am the Son of God?"
(John 10:36)
In these, and numerous other, verses of the Bible, Jesus is proclaimed as the 'Sent One', which in accordance with Isa 48:16-17, and other Scriptures, names Him as 'Jehovah God.'

Additional Biblical testimony that Jesus is God, is provided by the Gospel of John.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
(John 1:1)
"And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth."
(John 1:14)
From verse 14, we can determine that ' the Word' is Jesus. The final portion of verse 1 proclaims that the Word was God. See John 1:1-3 Bible Study for more in-depth info.
(Note; The contention that this part of the verse should read, 'the Word was a god', is refuted by the original Greek manuscripts, which read, 'God was the Word.' Additionally, the Title 'ho theos' is used for the name 'God'. Throughout ALL the Greek manuscripts, this TITLE was used only to name the One, True, God. For a more in-depth explanation see The Title ho theos.)
" Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip?
He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?"
(John 14:8-9)
Also we find more proof in John 20:28-29

Both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible contain many proclamations that Jesus is God, 'JHVH and ho theos'. We also find several titles being shared by God, Jehovah and Jesus. These also attest to the fact that Jesus is God.


Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.

Defense: Son of man in this verse is not the same as the title that Jesus used in the OT..
Denotes mankind generally, with special reference to their weakness and frailty (Job 25:6; Psalms 8:4; 144:3; 146:3; Isaiah 51:12, etc.).



It is a title frequently given to the prophet Ezekiel, probably to remind him of his human weakness.



In the New Testament it is used forty-three times as a distinctive title of the Saviour. In the Old Testament it is used only in Psalms 80:17 and Daniel 7:13 with this application. It denotes the true humanity of our Lord. He had a true body (Hebrews 2:14; Luke 24:39) and a rational soul. He was perfect man.


Hashem did in fact proclaim, "Exodus 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy G-d, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no elohim acherim before me." But you have made this man into an elohim, as the word is also used for a person of authority, and placed him before God.

Defense: Indeed, for the divine name, YHWH, was given to Jesus, that every knee should bow to him and every tongue confess that he is Lord Isa 45:20-23). New Testament believers are to live their lives in Jesus' name just as the Old Testament believers were to live in the name of God the Lord.

I recognize similarities between your beliefs, and those of the Mithraists. But I suppose that's what gradually happens to Hellenizers and pagans such as yourselves.

Defense: Objection your honor.. badgering the witness

You introduce ideas such as human sacrifice and the view that one being can die to remove another's sin, when in fact the Torah says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deuteronomy 24:16) And where in the Torah or any other part of the Tanach does it describe the method by which human sacrifice should take place? All sacrifices are clearly described, and they all take place in the Beit HaMikdash(Temple). Where is the description for a human sacrifice that dies of prolonged suffering, rather than quickly with limited suffering as God usually requires?

What say you?

Defense: Genesis 22: 1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 2 Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

Would God ask Abraham to do what he himself would not do?

[Faithfulservant]

No, you are accused as heretics for avodah zerah (literally means strange worship and has a somewhat looser definition than the the English word Idolatry) and blaspheme. (assuming that your position is one of a Trinity. What is your position?) You blatantly worship an elohim acherim. Had you only claimed to see a miracle, then there would be no trial. You know as well as I do that when HaMoshiach comes God will bring world peace and all of the people will be gathered back to Israel. The Beit HaMikdash will be rebuilt, etc.

Defense: You are speaking of the second coming of Christ.. which is still to happen. Interesting enough it was prophesized in Revelation as well and look what is happening to Israel now the people are returning.. What will You say when you behold your Lord and realize that he is the One your nation rejected and caused to be crucified?

This is not the problem. Hillel was a wise man. I don't worship him. That would be avodah zerah. And Jesus also said that the only way to find God was through him. How is this wise, if every individual has a direct connection to God? By making himself an intermediary he becomes an elohim acherim. I cannot approve.

Defense: 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


How do you fulfill an eternal covenant? There will be no end. The Torah represents God's will for man on earth.

Defense: "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

Abraham said to the rich man in hell, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them bear them; if they hear not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead (Luke 16:29, 31).

Philip said to Nathanael, We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and the Prophets did write (John 1:45).

The Law and the Prophets were until John since then the kingdom of God is evangelized (Luke 16:16).

In these passages, "Moses and the Prophets," and "the Law and the Prophets," mean all things that have been written in the books of Moses and in the books of the prophets. That "the Law" specifically means all things that have been written by Moses, is further evident from the following passages. In Luke:--

When the days of her purification, according to the Law of Moses, were fulfilled, they brought Jesus to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord; as it is written in the Law of the Lord: Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; and to offer a sacrifice, according to that which is said in the Law of the Lord: A pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons. And the parents brought Jesus into the temple, to do for Him after the custom of the Law. And when they had performed all things according to the Law of the Lord (Luke 2:22-24, 27, 39).

That the statement that the Lord fulfilled all things of the Law means that He fulfilled all things of the Word, is evident from passages where it is said that the Scripture was fulfilled by Him, and that all things were consummated: as from the following:--

Jesus went into the synagogue, and stood up to read, and there was delivered to Him the book of the prophet Isaiah, and He unrolled the book, and found the place where it is written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me, He hath sent Me to preach the gospel to the poor, to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And He rolled up the book and said, This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears (Luke 4:16-21).

Search the Scriptures, for they testify of Me (John 5:39).

That the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with Me hath lifted up his heel against Me (John 13:18).

None of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled (John 17:12).

That the word might be fulfilled which He spake, Of them whom Thou gavest Me have I lost none (John 18:9).

Jesus said to Peter, Put up again thy sword into its place. How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? But all this was done that the Scriptures of the Prophets might be fulfilled (Matt. 26:52, 54, 56).

The Son of Man goeth as it is written of Him, that the Scriptures be fulfilled (Mark 14:21, 49).

Thus the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, He was accounted among the transgressors (Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37).

That the Scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They divided My garments among them, and upon my under-vesture did they cast a lot (John 19:24).

After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now consummated, that the Scripture might be fulfilled (John 19:28).

When Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, It is consummated, that is, fulfilled (John 19:30).

These things were done, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, A bone of Him shall not be broken. And again another Scripture saith, They shall look on Him whom they pierced (John 19:36, 37).

Besides other places, where passages are adduced from the Prophets, without its being at the same time said that the Law, or the Scripture, was fulfilled. That all the Word has been written about the Lord, and that He came into the world to fulfill it, He also taught His disciples before His departure, in these words:--

Jesus said to His disciples, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to suffer these things, and to enter into His glory? And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself (Luke 24:25-27).

Jesus said to His disciples, These are the words which I spake unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me (Luke 24:44).

That in the world the Lord fulfilled all things of the Word, even to the veriest singulars of it, is evident from these His own words:--

Verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law, till all things be accomplished (Matt. 5:18).
From these passages it may now be clearly seen that by its being said that the Lord fulfilled all things of the law is not meant that He fulfilled all the commandments of the decalogue, but that He fulfilled all things of the Word.



It was also a warning for those people who were still sacrificing their children. Because they could look to Torah and see a familiar story of God asking for a child, but no! It was just a test. God does not want this. No child shall die for the sins of the father, or vice versa. We die for our sins alone.

Defense: Did God say this test was a warning against people sacrificing their children??? No he did not. He was testing the faith of Abraham and Abraham was justified by his faith. You are a man and cannot speak for God. If its written than its the WORD if its not than its subject to man-made error.

[Faithfulservant]

Where do you get the idea this is about HaMoshiach? I see no place where HaMoshiach is mentioned here. I'm not sure why you started quoting where you did. What leads you to assume the verse begins there? I, as a Jew living in this time period, know of no such passage breaks. As this does not claim to be about HaMoshiach, we cannot make that assumption. On the other hand, there is something else suggested by the text:

Defense: 3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. He is despised and rejected of men is he not? He is a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief because of Israels continual rejection of him. You hide your face from him. He WAS despised and you esteemed him not... and still don't

4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Yes he bore your griefs sorrows and afflictions on the cross. He was smitten by the wrath of God to save you from his wrath. He was tortured for your sins and iniquities. He was chastized in your stead. With his stripes.. the many lashes of whips on his body.. you are healed.

6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. We are sheep that have wandered off we have gone our own way into the world and God laid on Jesus the sin of us ALL. He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did NOT open his mouth when the accusations were thrown at him. He was brought as a lamb to the slaughter OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. and as a sheep that stands before the shears JESUS spoke not one defense!!

8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. He was taken from prison and from judgement with his death and who shall tell all the world but the witnesses. For the transgressions of the world was he crucified.

12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors He poured out the Holy Spirit with his death. He was numbered with the other sinners even though he was sinless and he bore the sins of ALL and made intercession for the sinners so that they may see the Kingdom of God.

Isaiah 41:8-9: But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob who I have chosen, descendant of Abraham, my friend; You whom I have called from its remotest parts, and said to you, you are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you. God is comforting Israel saying that he forgives your rebelliousness he did not turn his face from you forever.

Isaiah 42:1: Behold my servant, whom I shall uphold; My chosen one, who My soul desired; I have placed My spirit upon him so he can bring forth justice to the nations.This is about Jesus.. Who can God uphold?? None of us are worthy except for Jesus.. his soul desires Jesus. He places his Spirit on him so he can bring forth justice to the nations..

Isaiah 43:10: You are my witnesses, declares Hashem, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me. He is declaring that There has never been nor will be a God other than him.

Isaiah 44:1-2: But now listen, O Jacob my servant, and Israel whom I have chosen: Thus says Hashem, who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you, “Do not fear O Jacob, my servant, Jesharun who I have chosen.” He is telling you not to fear.. Jesharun Israel he will help you.

Isaiah 44:21: Remember these things O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant, I have formed you, you are My servant O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me. Once again he is comforting you with his promise.

Isaiah 45:4: For the sake of Jacob my servant, and Israel, my chosen one, I have even called you by your name.

Isaiah 48:20: Go forth out of Babylon, flee from the Kasdim with a voice of singing declare, tell this, say it even to the ends of the earth; say “Hashem has redeemed His servant Jacob.”

Isaiah 49:3: And said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” The proceeding passages are self explanatory.

We are the suffering servant. Look around you. Jesus was one Jew who suffered and died, like so many others. And it doesn't stop. The Romans peeled off my brother's skin, layer by layer, until he collapsed and died, just because he studied Torah! You have abandoned your brethren and annointed another golden calf. You've become like the Romans.

Defense: We are all suffering you have too much pride. God chose Israel because he needed a people to set his foundation upon and Abraham was a man of great faith to establish those people. It does not set you above other people. Jesus did not die by the scourging he died on the cross. The priests and people demanded he be crucified even when Pilate could not find fault with him..Jesus IS the annointed one it is told to us in the word.

Let us not forget the Roman that Jesus met on the road.

Matthew 8:5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented." 7 And Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him." 8 The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you." And his servant was healed that same hour.
Luke 7:1 Now when He concluded all His sayings in the hearing of the people, He entered Capernaum. 2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear to him, was sick and ready to die. 3 So when he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to Him, pleading with Him to come and heal his servant. 4 And when they came to Jesus, they begged Him earnestly, saying that the one for whom He should do this was deserving, 5 "for he loves our nation, and has built us a synagogue." 6 Then Jesus went with them. And when He was already not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to Him, saying to Him, "Lord, do not trouble Yourself, for I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof. 7 Therefore I did not even think myself worthy to come to You. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, "I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!" 10 And those who were sent, returning to the house, found the servant well who had been sick.

I would like to add an addition to Isaiah I would like to see if you do not believe that this speaks of Jesus. You can also see the similiarities with the verse in Isaiah if your wont to do so.

Psalm 22 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning? 2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; And in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But You are holy, Enthroned in the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in You; They trusted, and You delivered them. 5 They cried to You, and were delivered; They trusted in You, and were not ashamed. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people. 7 All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 "He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!" 9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God.


11 Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. 13 They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. 18 They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots. 19 But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, hasten to help Me! 20 Deliver Me from the sword, My precious life from the power of the dog. 21 Save Me from the lion's mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me. 22 I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. 23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel! 24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard. 25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who fear Him. 26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the Lord. Let your heart live forever! 27 All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. 28 For the kingdom is the Lord's, And He rules over the nations. 29 All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive. 30 A posterity shall serve Him. It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation, 31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, That He has done this.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by dauer

Prosecution

Listen! You heretics have forgotten the words of Torah:

Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!" [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst."

OOC: Can I ask a question off topic? What Version are you getting this verse from because It does not match any bible versions that I have access to. I looked in different Jewish versions of the bible and it looks like your version added

" The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it."

Which throws all the subsequent verses off. This is what my bible says:

Deuteronomy 13:1-11
1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

John 18

defense: If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?

You have spoken evil and I did bear witness to it. You have claimed to have foresaken your God and begun practicing avodah zerah (means strange worship but gets translated into idolatry because it's the closest term in English) which the Torah warns against. You have placed an elohim acherim (other god/celestial being/human leader) before God and built your idol. Were you to claim Jesus was just a teacher, and no more than a man, you would not have sinned. Were you to claim Jesus was HaMoshiach, but just a man, you would be mistaken but still not have sinned. But you claim Jesus is messiah and in this you become no different than the Dionysians or Mithraists who are your neighbors. The Torah warns extensively against your pagan beliefs. I cannot have mercy upon you as the Torah commands otherwise:

.


7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known."


8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth;


9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him.


10. But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.


11. And you shall stone him with stones so that he dies, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


12. And all Israel shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer do any evil such as this in your midst.

from Deut 13

You are the ones on trial. Now disprove that your are idolators, violating God's mitzvot.


(potentiall helpful link)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatr...e_Hebrew_Bible

[dauer]

faithful servant, the numbering in Jewish and Christian texts is sometimes different. Go back a verse and see if it's there. You will find the verse in this translation here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9977

If you can't find it, I'll check the hebrew but I can assure you the verse is there. Unlike the Christian texts, the Jewish ones are always directly from the Hebrew.

Dauer

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

This Jesus is speaking of the eternal kingdom, not a physical kingdom. This is during the 1000 years of peace which is to come, when Jesus will reign over all nations.
Not only will he fulfill and lead in the eternal Kingdom, but all phsyical kingdoms will be left in ruins.
He most certainly did fulfil his mission because He lives within my heart. This peace they are looking for is inside the heart. Not some man made physical peaceful notion of a messiah. That person will be a FRAUD!
tHAT IS NEVER going to happen again.

Where are you getting all of this nonsense? I see none of it in the Tanach. Have you been reading more of the pagan bards? They speak nonsense too. Show me in Tanach as no other source is valid to defend your life.

And what do you mean again? It hasn't happened yet. There is no world peace. Just because you cannot come to grasp the idea of world peace does not mean it will happen, as it is clearly described in the Tanach.

Dauer

[Faithfulservant]

Thanks Dauer.. It was in chapter 12 verse 32

Originally Posted by dauer

faithful servant, the numbering in Jewish and Christian texts is sometimes different. Go back a verse and see if it's there. You will find the verse in this translation here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9977

If you can't find it, I'll check the hebrew but I can assure you the verse is there. Unlike the Christian texts, the Jewish ones are always directly from the Hebrew.

Dauer

[dauer]

(again Bass, please give verse citations. Thank you.)

Originally Posted by Basstian

Defence I count over 45 prophecies in my Old testament pointing towards the redeemer of Isreal the messiah as us Christians call Him.

Where? Show me all of them rather than mentioning them. And show me specifically where they say they are about hamoshiach or the end of days.

Jesus fulfiled every one of them as far as an eternal Kingdom

How do you know?

Isaiah spoke of a New heavon and a new eart when all flesh would Come to worship Him from one new moon to another and one sabbath to another

And that has not happened yet. In addition to that, he said the mitzvot would be written on the heart which means the mitzvot never die. If the mitzvot never die, you cannot worship a man-god.

JUst because He Did not wipe out the Roman army does not mean this Kingdom Doesnt exist

What about rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash? What about world peace? What about being a descendant of David through Solomon? He did nothing. Bar Kokhba was closer to hamoshiach than your mangod, and he was a war mongering fool!

Jeremiah siad the law would be written in a man heart in the new covenant How do you as a judge read what Has been written in my heart.

It doesn't say there will be a new covenant. The mitzvot will be written in a man's heart, which means he will never falter from them, except accidentally. As an idolator, you have clearly faltered much. For shame!

Tell Me Now Do your traditions Fall in line with the Laws Handed to you from Moses

Yes.

Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

We don't.

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

We say what? Where do you read such nonsense? You dreamer of dreams told you to put him before your parents. That is violating the Torah.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Where do you get such rubbish? The mitzvot are God's will on earth. If you choose to violate them you are violating God's will. Do you wish to know God? Walk in his ways and stop worshipping a man.

We must then Do away with these Modren Doctrines and go back to the original letter of the Law

What do you mean the "original letter of the law?" The Torah is understood by the oral Torah, which was given to Moses and then to Joshua and then the Elders and then the Prophets and then the Men of the Great Assembly and so on until it has been our task to apply it to today. We are in agreement of this, as Jesus recognized that we sit in the seat of Moses. You have strayed far, O idolator.

The Statutes and ordinances we can both agree have become out dated as civil law we no longer gather manna as our fathers Did we no longer live in the incampments of our fathers.

Where are we commanded to do so? And if we cannot do something, why would we be required to fulfill that part of the law? God is just and merciful. Have you forgotten that halakhah(jewish law) means walking and Torah means teaching?

But the Law The Ten that where Chiseled in stone prove we have been led from them and I will admit my Guilt

Do you mean the Aseret Ha-Dibrot? Why do you place these above all others? Why do you say these are more from God than the others? And if they are, surely you are idolators!

Also ask yourself is Handing a Jew over to be murdered By the Romans who Found Know fault in Him not murder?

It is not murder. You are guilty of avodah zerah and will be charged according to God's law. We are told to have no mercy on the idolator. The heathens are kind enough to allow us to prosecute you.

I thank God he was the Lamb of God

Lambs are not used for expiation of sin.

and that his death was part of Gods plan so that this Sin will not be held against you.

How is it a sin to do as God wills and wipe out the idolators in our midst? And how is Jesus' death any more part of God's plan than the death of my brother, another part of this suffering servant we call Bnai Yisrael?

But with It comes the offer of your Slavation.

Salvation from what? You can redeem yourself through your own actions.

"If you do good, won't there be special privilege? And if you do not do good, sin waits at the door. It lusts after you, but you can dominate it." (Genesis 4:7)

It is okay to make mistakes because as we know

Proverbs 24:16: "The righteous fall even seven times and still get up, but the wicked stumble in evil."

It is righteous to make mistakes and pick yourself up.

"For the righteous stumble even seven times, but they get up again!" And they are still called righteous! And the wicked who repent are no longer called wicked. “Even when I have told the wicked that he will die, but then he repents, and he does justice and righteousness; he returns the collateral when he is supposed to, he repays what he stole, he begins to live by the Laws of Life, and does not do evil, he will live, and he will not die. All the sins that he committed will not be held against him, for he has begun to do judgment and righteousness; he shall surely live.” (Ezekiel 33:14-16)

We do not need salvation. We are empowered to help ourselves. You have strayed far.

As far as the Golden Calf ? You My friends must be saving for that build seeing the money changers in the temples

How long have you been far from Jerusalem? The moneychangers are not within the Temple itself. The kohanim are the only ones there. They are in one of the outer courts because the money of Rome bears the image oof the emperor who is worshipped as a god. We cannot use this money. So the moneychangers are there to help with the shekel offerings and when people need to buy an animal for a qorban. Their practices are regulated by sages who are there to monitor their wages. They are picked by lottery for the day to limit the people practicing and their charge is set so they cannot overburden the people who come. If someone had a problem with their wages they could simply seek out someone monitoring the affair and report them. Methinks your books were written many years after alleged events would have taken place, by people unfamiliar with Judaism.

and the Fine adornments you wear.

Us? No. Cast that accusation against the accursed Sadducees. They have been hellenizing like yourselves, and abusing their rights as kohanim.

My only Question is when will you like are Fathers Decide that the Time is Right to Forge this Idol ?

Blaspheme! And now I am afraid your fate is sealed. You have, in a court against you, invited me to join you in avodah zerah. Do you have anything to say for this behavior or are you ready to die?

Dauer

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dauer

Where are you getting all of this nonsense? I see none of it in the Tanach. Have you been reading more of the pagan bards? They speak nonsense too. Show me in Tanach as no other source is valid to defend your life.

And what do you mean again? It hasn't happened yet. There is no world peace. Just because you cannot come to grasp the idea of world peace does not mean it will happen, as it is clearly described in the Tanach.

Dauer

defense:No there is no world peace. The most you will ever get here on earth is a temporary peace and immediately it will be destroyed. The IDEA of world peace is all you will have and no eternal peace.

You are waiting for a mortal Kingdom that will be left desolate with an offering that will be a lie and decieve not only Israel but all nations.
I am waiting for the eternal Kingdom that Jesus will deliver unto God with eternal life, and this is the beginning of a time of peace. Not someone ruling from a material temple made with stones that can and will be destroyed. The very Temple that was worshipped in was destroyed and this Jesus whom you reject, prophesied of it.

I do not read or believe ANY pagan myths or ideas.

What is Tanach?

[Bandit]

You have spoken evil and I did bear witness to it. You have claimed to have foresaken your God and begun practicing avodah zerah (means strange worship but gets translated into idolatry because it's the closest term in English) which the Torah warns against. You have placed an elohim acherim (other god/celestial being/human leader) before God and built your idol. Were you to claim Jesus was just a teacher, and no more than a man, you would not have sinned. Were you to claim Jesus was HaMoshiach, but just a man, you would be mistaken but still not have sinned. But you claim Jesus is messiah and in this you become no different than the Dionysians or Mithraists who are your neighbors. The Torah warns extensively against your pagan beliefs. I cannot have mercy upon you as the Torah commands otherwise:

Dauer, I wll have to do this one in a day or so. with verses. I guess you are meaning the OT and NT when you say Tanach?