Christians you are on Trial Bring your Bible and Defend your self

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

[size=1]Defense: The modern Jews appeal to this passage as justifying their rejection of Jesus Christ. But He possessed all the characteristics of a true prophet,

How so? It's one thing to make a statement. It's another to back it up.


[quote and He was so far from alienating the people from God and His worship that the grand object of His ministry was to lead to a purer, more spiritual and perfect observance of the law.[/quote]

Not if he told people the only way to God was through him, or if he said even thinking about a woman was a sin, or if you believe he implied original sin. He made himself into an elohim acherim. This is an undeniable fact. You are a pagan pretending to be a monotheist.

A dreamer of dreams - One that pretends God hath revealed himself to him by visions or dreams. Giveth a sign or wonder - That is, shall foretell some strange and wonderful thing.......

Many have been witness to the signs and wonders of the Messiah our Lord Jesus Christ. They witnessed his birth.. his ministry..his miracles...his being witnessed of by John the baptist who was the voice in the wilderness..the transfiguration.. his death which was foretold in Psalms and Isaiah.. and his resurrection.

If they witnessed it and believed in him because of that, then they were following a dreamer of dreams. Even if he makes signs or portents, he's still a dreamer of dreams. In addition. There is no evidence in Psalms or Isaiah for Jesus, except that which was read into the text after his death.

Defense: Objection Heresay..I followed Gods mandates on how to know a false prophet and I dont see how I failed the test.

Not heresay at all. You did not follow God's mandates. Jesus added to the law, subtracted from it, told everyone to worship him which is avodah zerah and clearly a violation of Torah. You have failed.

Defense: "Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and act wisely, and shall do judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely. And this is His name by which He shall be called, JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
(Jer 23:5-6)

I have issue with this translation because it is extremely partisan, especially because it capitalizes he and says "The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" When in reality it would better read, "The LORD is our righteousness. So it would better be rendered:

5. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will set up of David a righteous shoot, and he shall reign a king and prosper, and he shall perform judgment and righteousness in the land.

In his days, Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is his name that he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness.

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...showrashi=true

[left][size=1]We know from the genealogy of Jesus Christ, and from the Gospels, that He (Jesus of Nazareth), is the 'righteous Branch.'

No, we do not know that. You assume it based on a fictional book that I consider hearsay for this trial.

"The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

Anybody can claim to be descended from David. Bar Kochba did it and was even annointed properly. Let me make clear that moshiach means annointed one. Cyrus was a moshiach. Hamoshiach is simply the annointed one.

We see in Jer 23:5-6, 'Jehovah' speaking and calling the 'righteous Branch' 'JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

No we don't. That's a mistranslation and an attempt to fit your mangod into a book that does not accept the worship of people.

We know that 'Jehovah' is the name of the God of Israel, Our Almighty and Eternal God.

No we don't. That's another poor translation of a word with no vowels that is only pronounced once a year by the kohein gadol.

We find Our Great God naming 'the righteous Branch', Jesus Christ, as 'JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

No we don't. It says Hashem is our righteousness which is a very proper title for a good Jewish boy, because it recognizes that all of the glory goes to God.

This names Him as God Almighty and Eternal, since the name/title 'JHVH, or YHWH' was only applied to the God of Israel, 'The Great I AM', by the Spiritually inspired Hebrew writers of Testament.

I AM is also a very poor translation.

Further proof is evidenced by comparing Isa 61:1-3 and Luke 4:17-21.
"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on Me; because Jehovah has anointed Me to preach the Gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to preach the acceptable year of Jehovah and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; to appoint to those who mourn in Zion, to give to them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the mantle of praise for the spirit of heaviness; so that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that He might be glorified."
"For I Jehovah love judgment-"
(Isa 61:1-3 & 8)

I don't agree with that translation either because it's introducing foreign concepts like "gospel". Here's a better:

The spirit of the Lord God was upon me, since the Lord anointed me to bring tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to declare freedom for the captives, and for the prisoners to free from captivity.


2. To declare a year of acceptance for the Lord and a day of vengeance for our God, to console all mourners.


3. To place for the mourners of Zion, to give them glory instead of ashes, oil of joy instead of mourning, a mantle of praise instead of a feeble spirit, and they shall be called the elms of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, with which to glory.

We find that Isa 61:8, names the speaker of verses 1-3 as 'Jehovah'. He states that He has been anointed by Jehovah to preach the Gospel.

Wrong again. The speaker is Yesheyahu who has been taken by the ruach ha-kodesh which is not an entity. The spirit of God is a state of being. It's like being taken by a muse. I'm sure you yourself are very familiar with the works of the heathens. The prophet is basically reporting back his message from God. "God said this to me because I am such and-such to say a, b, c, for I am the Lord." He was continuing along with reporting what had been reported to him. He would not have needed to say, "Then God said, For I am the Lord." Because it would have been understood how the report worked.

Again, we find 'JHVH, or YHWH' being assigned by God's inspiration to two different beings.

No we don't.

In the Gospel of Luke we find this corresponding entry concerning Jesus,

"And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And unrolling the book, He found the place where it was written, 'The Spirit of the Lord is on Me; because of this He has anointed Me to proclaim the Gospel to the poor, (etc).'- "
"And He began to say to them, Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your ears."
(Luke 4:17-19 & 21)
With these verses, Jesus names Himself the anointed 'Jehovah' of Isa 61:1-3, which in turn names Him God.

It's not about what Jesus claims to be. It's about what Jesus is. When HaMoshiach comes there will be no need for belief.

[left]More Scriptural proof that Jesus is 'Jehovah' occurs in Isa 48:16-17 & Zec 2:10-11,
[size=1][i] "Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning. From its being, I was there; and now the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit, has sent Me. So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God -"

[quote]16. Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit.

continued...

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

[size=1]Defense: The modern Jews appeal to this passage as justifying their rejection of Jesus Christ. But He possessed all the characteristics of a true prophet,

How so? It's one thing to make a statement. It's another to back it up.


[quote and He was so far from alienating the people from God and His worship that the grand object of His ministry was to lead to a purer, more spiritual and perfect observance of the law.[/quote]

Not if he told people the only way to God was through him, or if he said even thinking about a woman was a sin, or if you believe he implied original sin. He made himself into an elohim acherim. This is an undeniable fact. You are a pagan pretending to be a monotheist.

A dreamer of dreams - One that pretends God hath revealed himself to him by visions or dreams. Giveth a sign or wonder - That is, shall foretell some strange and wonderful thing.......

Many have been witness to the signs and wonders of the Messiah our Lord Jesus Christ. They witnessed his birth.. his ministry..his miracles...his being witnessed of by John the baptist who was the voice in the wilderness..the transfiguration.. his death which was foretold in Psalms and Isaiah.. and his resurrection.

If they witnessed it and believed in him because of that, then they were following a dreamer of dreams. Even if he makes signs or portents, he's still a dreamer of dreams. In addition. There is no evidence in Psalms or Isaiah for Jesus, except that which was read into the text after his death.

Defense: Objection Heresay..I followed Gods mandates on how to know a false prophet and I dont see how I failed the test.

Not heresay at all. You did not follow God's mandates. Jesus added to the law, subtracted from it, told everyone to worship him which is avodah zerah and clearly a violation of Torah. You have failed.

Defense: "Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and act wisely, and shall do judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely. And this is His name by which He shall be called, JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
(Jer 23:5-6)

I have issue with this translation because it is extremely partisan, especially because it capitalizes he and says "The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" When in reality it would better read, "The LORD is our righteousness. So it would better be rendered:

5. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will set up of David a righteous shoot, and he shall reign a king and prosper, and he shall perform judgment and righteousness in the land.

In his days, Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is his name that he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness.

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...showrashi=true

[left][size=1]We know from the genealogy of Jesus Christ, and from the Gospels, that He (Jesus of Nazareth), is the 'righteous Branch.'

No, we do not know that. You assume it based on a fictional book that I consider hearsay for this trial.

"The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

Anybody can claim to be descended from David. Bar Kochba did it and was even annointed properly. Let me make clear that moshiach means annointed one. Cyrus was a moshiach. Hamoshiach is simply the annointed one.

We see in Jer 23:5-6, 'Jehovah' speaking and calling the 'righteous Branch' 'JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

No we don't. That's a mistranslation and an attempt to fit your mangod into a book that does not accept the worship of people.

We know that 'Jehovah' is the name of the God of Israel, Our Almighty and Eternal God.

No we don't. That's another poor translation of a word with no vowels that is only pronounced once a year by the kohein gadol.

We find Our Great God naming 'the righteous Branch', Jesus Christ, as 'JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

No we don't. It says Hashem is our righteousness which is a very proper title for a good Jewish boy, because it recognizes that all of the glory goes to God.

This names Him as God Almighty and Eternal, since the name/title 'JHVH, or YHWH' was only applied to the God of Israel, 'The Great I AM', by the Spiritually inspired Hebrew writers of Testament.

I AM is also a very poor translation.

Further proof is evidenced by comparing Isa 61:1-3 and Luke 4:17-21.
"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on Me; because Jehovah has anointed Me to preach the Gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to preach the acceptable year of Jehovah and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; to appoint to those who mourn in Zion, to give to them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the mantle of praise for the spirit of heaviness; so that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that He might be glorified."
"For I Jehovah love judgment-"
(Isa 61:1-3 & 8)

I don't agree with that translation either because it's introducing foreign concepts like "gospel". Here's a better:

The spirit of the Lord God was upon me, since the Lord anointed me to bring tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to declare freedom for the captives, and for the prisoners to free from captivity.


2. To declare a year of acceptance for the Lord and a day of vengeance for our God, to console all mourners.


3. To place for the mourners of Zion, to give them glory instead of ashes, oil of joy instead of mourning, a mantle of praise instead of a feeble spirit, and they shall be called the elms of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, with which to glory.

We find that Isa 61:8, names the speaker of verses 1-3 as 'Jehovah'. He states that He has been anointed by Jehovah to preach the Gospel.

Wrong again. The speaker is Yesheyahu who has been taken by the ruach ha-kodesh which is not an entity. The spirit of God is a state of being. It's like being taken by a muse. I'm sure you yourself are very familiar with the works of the heathens. The prophet is basically reporting back his message from God. "God said this to me because I am such and-such to say a, b, c, for I am the Lord." He was continuing along with reporting what had been reported to him. He would not have needed to say, "Then God said, For I am the Lord." Because it would have been understood how the report worked.

Again, we find 'JHVH, or YHWH' being assigned by God's inspiration to two different beings.

No we don't.

In the Gospel of Luke we find this corresponding entry concerning Jesus,

"And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And unrolling the book, He found the place where it was written, 'The Spirit of the Lord is on Me; because of this He has anointed Me to proclaim the Gospel to the poor, (etc).'- "
"And He began to say to them, Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your ears."
(Luke 4:17-19 & 21)
With these verses, Jesus names Himself the anointed 'Jehovah' of Isa 61:1-3, which in turn names Him God.

It's not about what Jesus claims to be. It's about what Jesus is. When HaMoshiach comes there will be no need for belief.

[left]More Scriptural proof that Jesus is 'Jehovah' occurs in Isa 48:16-17 & Zec 2:10-11,
[size=1][i] "Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning. From its being, I was there; and now the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit, has sent Me. So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God -"

[quote]16. Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit.

continued...

[dauer]

the post directly above this was an accidental double-post. Please ignore it.

17. So said the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you for your profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.[/quote]

"Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion. For lo, I come, and I will dwell in your midst, says Jehovah. And many nations shall be joined to Jehovah in that day, and shall be My people; and I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that Jehovah of Hosts has sent me to you. "[/i]

14. Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for, behold! I will come and dwell in your midst, says the Lord.


15. And many nations shall join the Lord on that day, and they shall be My people; and I will dwell in your midst and you shall know that the Lord of Hosts sent me to you.

We again see the name 'Jehovah' being used to indicate two individual beings. We have 'Jehovah' speaking and being sent by 'the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit'.

No we don't. In Zech it's talking about God's presence returning to the Temple. An angel is talking for Hashem, as is mentioned a couple lines earlier. The angel is quoting Hashem and then saying that He sent him.

God does not speak, as you should know. The Torah speaks in the language of man and as we cannot understand what is happening, it uses human terms because that is the closest we can come to reality, even though it is not true to the actual happening.

In other words, 'Jehovah your God' is sent by the 'Lord Jehovah and His Spirit'.

No, not really.

The 'sent One' is identified in the Gospels,
[i] "And He (Jesus) said to them, I must proclaim the gospel, the kingdom of God, to other cities, because I was sent on this mission,"[/i
(Luke 4:43)

Yes, so clearly the authors of the gospels knew nothing of Torah when they crafted their man-god.

"Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me."
(John 8:42)

What is your point? He can claim whatever he wants according to false readings of Torah. I see no evidence HaMoshiach has come.

" do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I (Jesus) said, I am the Son of God?"
(John 10:36)

Do you know what Ben Elohim means or are you that removed from your own language?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_god

In these, and numerous other, verses of the Bible, Jesus is proclaimed as the 'Sent One', which in accordance with Isa 48:16-17, and other Scriptures, names Him as 'Jehovah God.'[/size]

No, you have yet to prove anything. Your arguments fall flat to the truth of Torah.

[/left]
[left]Additional Biblical testimony that Jesus is God, is provided by the Gospel of John.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
(John 1:1)

John is fiction, not Tanach. You'll have to prove your case from Tanach if you want to live.

"And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth."
(John 1:14)

Prove it with Tanach. I will not accept these ramblings.

From verse 14, we can determine that ' the Word' is Jesus. The final portion of verse 1 proclaims that the Word was God. See

John 1:1-3 Bible Study[size=1] for more in-depth info.

Are you trying to convince Christians?

Both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible contain many proclamations that Jesus is God, 'JHVH and ho theos'. We also find several titles being shared by God, Jehovah and Jesus. These also attest to the fact that Jesus is God.

Prove it. Your life depends on it.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.

[b]Defense: Son of man in this verse is not the same as the title that Jesus used in the OT..
...
It is a title frequently given to the prophet Ezekiel, probably to remind him of his human weakness.

[size=1]In the New Testament it is used forty-three times as a distinctive title of the Saviour.

Are you saying if I call myself Ben Adam it means one thing that is true for all people, but if it applies to Jesus it means something completely different? That's nonsense. Ben Adam, basically mortal, is a term used by Jesus.

Hashem did in fact proclaim, "Exodus 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy G-d, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no elohim acherim before me." But you have made this man into an elohim, as the word is also used for a person of authority, and placed him before God.

Defense: Indeed, for the divine name, YHWH, was given to Jesus, that every knee should bow to him and every tongue confess that he is Lord Isa 45:20-23). New Testament believers are to live their lives in Jesus' name just as the Old Testament believers were to live in the name of God the Lord.

Then you admit to avodah zerah and you shall die too!

I recognize similarities between your beliefs, and those of the Mithraists. But I suppose that's what gradually happens to Hellenizers and pagans such as yourselves.

Defense: Objection your honor.. badgering the witness

I see no furry little animals. Either you respond to this or refuse to respond and admit the fallacious nature of your arguements.

Defense: Genesis 22: 1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 2 Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

Would God ask Abraham to do what he himself would not do?

God is not a man, nor material in any way. God does not have children, eat, sleep, learn the aleph beit as a child, get punished for being bad, wear a diaper as a child, defecate. God is unique. There is none like Him. Your question makes no sense as it assumes that God is similar to humans. This is a projection of your belief in a man-god.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

when HaMoshiach comes God will bring world peace and all of the people will be gathered back to Israel. The Beit HaMikdash will be rebuilt, etc.

Defense: You are speaking of the second coming of Christ.. which is still to happen.

I know of no evidence for a "second coming." Why would God desire a "second coming?" Why not one? Why have HaMoshiach come and give no quantifiable evidence of his arrival?

Interesting enough it was prophesized in Revelation as well

What is this book? Another fiction?

and look what is happening to Israel now the people are returning..

... I look around and see the Romans wanting to kick us out...

What will You say when you behold your Lord and realize that he is the One your nation rejected and caused to be crucified?

If we did cause him to be crucified, it was according to God's mitzvot in dealing with a dreamer of dreams calling people to join in avodah zerah. If God did indeed cause such a slippery situation that we would fully believe he was immaterial and that HaMoshiach would be mortal and that someone who fits Jesus' description would be a dreamer of dreams despite none of this being true; this is no God that I know of.

This is not the problem. Hillel was a wise man. I don't worship him. That would be avodah zerah. And Jesus also said that the only way to find God was through him. How is this wise, if every individual has a direct connection to God? By making himself an intermediary he becomes an elohim acherim. I cannot approve.

Defense: 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

How does this answer my challenge? Are you saying that you are free to sin? You know I don't consider John to be sacred writ. Quote me from the Iliad as well and see my response.

How do you fulfill an eternal covenant? There will be no end. The Torah represents God's will for man on earth.

Defense: "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

So in other words as long as you practice avodah zerah you are keeping the teachings of your false prophet from being realized.

Abraham said to the rich man in hell, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them bear them; if they hear not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead (Luke 16:29, 31).

Ah, so rather than offer arguments against my statements you're going to quote scripture that contradicts Torah by saying you should follow someone just because they give you a sign or portent.

Philip said to Nathanael, We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and the Prophets did write (John 1:45).

Your "evidence" says otherwise.

The Law and the Prophets were until John since then the kingdom of God is evangelized (Luke 16:16).

I don't even know what that means exactly.

When the days of her purification, according to the Law of Moses, were fulfilled, they brought Jesus to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord; as it is written in the Law of the Lord: Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; and to offer a sacrifice, according to that which is said in the Law of the Lord: A pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons. And the parents brought Jesus into the temple, to do for Him after the custom of the Law. And when they had performed all things according to the Law of the Lord (Luke 2:22-24, 27, 39).

So in otherwords Jesus is born into the brit(covenant) and must follow all of the mitzvot. Otherwise, he will have sinned and cannot be called more sinless than anyone else who atones.

Jesus went into the synagogue, and stood up to read, and there was delivered to Him the book of the prophet Isaiah, and He unrolled the book, and found the place where it is written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me, He hath sent Me to preach the gospel to the poor, to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And He rolled up the book and said, This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears (Luke 4:16-21).

We already dealt with this text and I showed you that it was misquoted.

Search the Scriptures, for they testify of Me (John 5:39).

I don't see the relevance of this passage to your charge of avodah zerah.

That the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with Me hath lifted up his heel against Me (John 13:18).

What???????

Jesus said to Peter, Put up again thy sword into its place. How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? But all this was done that the Scriptures of the Prophets might be fulfilled (Matt. 26:52, 54, 56).

So in other words Jesus is just a man who is attempting to do what is necessary to fulfill the scripture as he understands it, despite his false understanding of Torah. That makes some sense.

I'm not responding to the rest of those quotes because it's more of the same, and of books I could care less about. The doctrines of your additions mean nothing to the fate or your life.

Jesus said to His disciples, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to suffer these things, and to enter into His glory? And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself (Luke 24:25-27).

I'm really not interested in what your godman said about himself. If it contradicts Torah, it contradicts Torah.

That in the world the Lord fulfilled all things of the Word, even to the veriest singulars of it, is evident from these His own words:--

If it is his own words it is evidence of nothing. I could say the same thing. Do you think he is the only false messiah running about?

From these passages it may now be clearly seen that by its being said that the Lord fulfilled all things of the law is not meant that He fulfilled all the commandments of the decalogue, but that He fulfilled all things of the Word.

No it can't. We just know he thought highly of himself and was most likely charismatic, and thus able to convince people to stray into avodah zerah.

Defense: Did God say this test was a warning against people sacrificing their children??? No he did not. He was testing the faith of Abraham and Abraham was justified by his faith. You are a man and cannot speak for God. If its written than its the WORD if its not than its subject to man-made error.

What man-made error? God also gave us the tools for understanding the Torah. If we look at the text, we realize Abraham knew what was going on all along.

Gen 22:5. And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go yonder, and we will prostrate ourselves and return to you."

He said "we will return." He knew God would not make him sacrifice his child.

8. And Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And they both went together.

God will provide the lamb. The lamb is not Isaac. Abraham trusts that he will not have to sacrifice his son. He was not supposed to have so much faith that he would kill his son, but rather so much trust that he would know God would never require that of him. Or it may be possible that it was through prophesy that Abraham was able to understand, and this is why he spoke as he did. You are correct that the text is very clear. You are mistaken in your reading and it does not save you from the charge of avodah zerah, which you seem to accept quite readily.

[Basstian]

Defence would evidence from another court and a trail of those similiar in belief as us be admissible

We have evidence (COURT RECORD) That Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
And to him they agreed

The evidence clearly shows that this Jesus followers have continued to grow His followers being Blessed as where the obedient Children of Isreal in days of old. While the temple Built with hands is coming to destruction the spiritual temple is being Built and becoming stronger every day with Jesus as its corner stone.
I request from the prosecution the word from the Prophets that you deem
is related to HaMoshiach

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Where do you get the idea this is about HaMoshiach? I see no place where HaMoshiach is mentioned here. I'm not sure why you started quoting where you did. What leads you to assume the verse begins there? I, as a Jew living in this time period, know of no such passage breaks. As this does not claim to be about HaMoshiach, we cannot make that assumption. On the other hand, there is something else suggested by the text:

Defense: 3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. He is despised and rejected of men is he not? He is a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief because of Israels continual rejection of him. You hide your face from him. He WAS despised and you esteemed him not... and still don't

Just because you can take a verse and apply it to someone out of context doesn't make the hamoshiach. Many people have been despised and rejected. That doesn't make them HaMoshiach either. And you still haven't shown why this verse should apply to HaMoshiach. I see no textual evidence for that assertion.

4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Yes he bore your griefs sorrows and afflictions on the cross. He was smitten by the wrath of God to save you from his wrath. He was tortured for your sins and iniquities. He was chastized in your stead. With his stripes.. the many lashes of whips on his body.. you are healed.

First of all, it doesn't say stripes. Here is Isaiah 53 in its entirety translated directly from the Hebrew:

1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?


2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?


3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.


4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.


5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.


6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.


7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.


8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.


9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.


10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.


11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.


12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Now as I illustrated earlier by quoting from the text of Yeshayahu itself, the servant is Israel. This makes much more sense. Look at history. And I will ask you again, where do you get the idea this is talking about HaMoshiach? I see no mention of HaMoshiach but I found several times the servant is called Israel or Jacob or both.

I'm not even dealing with the rest of your analysis until you address my argument and can present a foundation for your own interpretation within the text itself and not within the books you've added to Torah.

Isaiah 41:8-9: But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob who I have chosen, descendant of Abraham, my friend; You whom I have called from its remotest parts, and said to you, you are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you. God is comforting Israel saying that he forgives your rebelliousness he did not turn his face from you forever.

Why does he call us servant then, which is the same title in Isaiah 53?

Isaiah 42:1: Behold my servant, whom I shall uphold; My chosen one, who My soul desired; I have placed My spirit upon him so he can bring forth justice to the nations.This is about Jesus.. Who can God uphold?? None of us are worthy except for Jesus.. his soul desires Jesus. He places his Spirit on him so he can bring forth justice to the nations..

Your bias shows heavily here. I see no evidence of that in the text. If you read Isaiah all the way through, I would reccomend a translation directly from the Hebrew:

http://www.chabad.org/library/archiv....asp?AID=15755

You will find that the story of the servant is the story of Israel.

Isaiah 43:10: You are my witnesses, declares Hashem, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me. He is declaring that There has never been nor will be a God other than him.

So do you assert that this is God telling Jesus that he is to understand who God is? Isn't it a given that your mangod would know that?

Isaiah 44:1-2: But now listen, O Jacob my servant, and Israel whom I have chosen: Thus says Hashem, who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you, “Do not fear O Jacob, my servant, Jesharun who I have chosen.” He is telling you not to fear.. Jesharun Israel he will help you.

Don't you think it would be confusing if someone was giving a speech and referred to two different people by the same title? It's analagous to this story I'm making up:

There once was a dog. The dog was very sad. The dog went for a walk. Upset dog went to get a drink of water. Upset dog didn't want to talk to anybody. The dog decided talking might be okay.

Now you see... this is about two different dogs. One dog gets sad and goes for a walk, but then there is another dog, "upset dog," who gets some water and doesn't talk to anybody. But then the first dog decides talking is okay. Make sense? Good.

Isaiah 44:21: Remember these things O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant, I have formed you, you are My servant O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me. Once again he is comforting you with his promise.

It is true. We will not be forgotten. We will suffer for a while, but it will be for the good of everyone.

Isaiah 45:4: For the sake of Jacob my servant, and Israel, my chosen one, I have even called you by your name.

Isaiah 48:20: Go forth out of Babylon, flee from the Kasdim with a voice of singing declare, tell this, say it even to the ends of the earth; say “Hashem has redeemed His servant Jacob.”

Isaiah 49:3: And said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” The proceeding passages are self explanatory.

I'm glad you agree.

Defense: We are all suffering you have too much pride.

I have pride?? Look at Jesus! He's turned himself into an idol for worship! Do you think I or anyone else enjoys being persecuted? No. But at least we know that it is a part of God's plan and as a nation of priests we are playing an important role. I don't think there's any pride in calling ourselves the suffering servant. It's more of a resignation to our role.

God chose Israel because he needed a people to set his foundation upon and Abraham was a man of great faith to establish those people.

Are you sure that's the reason?

It does not set you above other people.

Of course it doesn't! That doesn't change what we are. The brit(covenant) between God and Israel binds us to His mitzvot, but anyone can become a Jew and even a non-Jew can be regarded as a ben noah. Unlike you, we do not condemn other people to hell. We have no hell. And the righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come.

Jesus did not die by the scourging he died on the cross. The priests and people demanded he be crucified even when Pilate could not find fault with him..

What a biased view of history, as if every word of your gospels is truth despite the fact they disagree with Torah.

Jesus IS the annointed one it is told to us in the word.

You keep saying that but you've yet to offer any proof, besides the fact that you don't like the idea of Israel being the suffering servant.

Let us not forget the Roman that Jesus met on the road.

Matthew 8:5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented." 7 And Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him." 8 The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you." And his servant was healed that same hour.

So in other words the later author/s of Matthew were trying to entice the Romans (particularly soldiers) into worshipping a different man-god than the one they had already.

[b]I would like to add an addition to Isaiah I would like to see if you do not believe that this speaks of Jesus. You can also see the similiarities with the verse in Isaiah if your wont to do so.

I am going to put here a more accurate translation:

1. For the conductor, on the ayeleth hashachar, a song of David.


2. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.


3. My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent.


4. But You are holy; You await the praises of Israel.


5. Our ancestors trusted in You; they trusted and You rescued them.


6. They cried out to You and they escaped; they trusted in You and they were not shamed.


7. But I am a worm and not a man; a reproach of man, despised by peoples.


8. All who see me will mock me; they will open their lips, they will shake their head.


9. One should cast his trust upon the Lord, and He will rescue him; He will save him because He delights in him.


10. For You drew me from the womb; You made me secure on my mother's breasts.


11. Upon You, I was cast from birth; from my mother's womb You are my God.


12. Do not distance Yourself from me, for distress is near; for there is none to help.


13. Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me.


14. They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion.


15. I was spilled like water, and all my bones were separated; my heart was like wax, melting within my innards.


16. My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death.


17. For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.


18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me.


19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.


20. But You, O Lord, do not distance Yourself; my strength, hasten to my assistance.


21. Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog.


22. Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me.


23. I will tell Your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise You.


24. You who fear the Lord, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, honor Him, and fear Him, all the seed of Israel.


25. For He has neither despised nor abhorred the cry of the poor, neither has He hidden His countenance from him; and when he cried out to Him, He hearkened.


26. Because of You is my praise in the great congregation; I pay my vows in the presence of those who fear Him.


27. The humble shall eat and be sated; they shall praise the Lord, those who seek him; your hearts shall live forever.


28. All the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall prostrate themselves before You.


29. For the kingship is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations.


30. They shall eat all the best of the earth and prostrate themselves; before Him shall all those who descend to the dust kneel, and He will not quicken his soul.


31. The seed that worships Him; it shall be told to the generation concerning the Lord.


32. They shall come and tell His righteousness to the newborn people, that which He has done.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16243

One major difference between yours and the translation direct from the Hebrew is in line 17 where the word pierce is never found. You can find a Jewish understanding of the text here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...showrashi=true

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

defense:

What is Tanach?

Last things first. Tanach is an acronym
Torah
Nevi'im prophets
Ketuvim writings

And as I am Jewish and the person you are trying to defend your life against is Jewish, I won't accept any other sources as a valid source of teaching. If you wish to use them to demonstrate the way Jesus may have acted, fine. But if it goes against what I know about the Jews of that time period or is mythical in nature I will reject it. Your real agenda should be to prove that what you are doing does not actually violate what is taught in the Tanach. If you can do that convincingly, then there is no reason to prosecute.

It should also be noted that I am a liberal Jew and I don't hold any text as sacred except to the degree that we hold it so. I don't believe God ever violates the laws of physics. But I am playing a role for this thread and will represent a more traditional view. I don't even believe in prophesy when prophesy means knowing what will come to pass, unless we're talking about intuition.

No there is no world peace. The most you will ever get here on earth is a temporary peace and immediately it will be destroyed.

Not according to the Tanach. Are you denying the validity of the Tanach?

The IDEA of world peace is all you will have and no eternal peace.

Why do you say this is true? Is it because of man's nature? According to the prophet the mitzvot will be written on the heart. This means we will no longer intentionally sin. It will all be hardwired into us.

You are waiting for a mortal Kingdom that will be left desolate with an offering that will be a lie and decieve not only Israel but all nations.

Do you think that the Messianic Age will take place because men force its existence? It will be because God wills it. This is how we know HaMoshiach has not come. When HaMoshiach comes there will be no believing; only knowing. And this knowing will not require belief in a man-god, or even knowledge of a man-god. God worked miracles for Moshe and He will work miracles again. In the messianic age it has been said all will have the gift of prophesy.

I am waiting for the eternal Kingdom that Jesus will deliver unto God with eternal life, and this is the beginning of a time of peace. Not someone ruling from a material temple made with stones that can and will be destroyed.

You do not understand Judaism very well. God is King. An earthly king was just a concession to humanity. Even in the messianic age, although there will be a king on the throne, God is the true King. You seem to think that your mangod is superior to Hashem. What is the difference between your peace and ours?

The very Temple that was worshipped in was destroyed and this Jesus whom you reject, prophesied of it.

Modern scholarship has shown this is more likely a later addition to the text, and I interject with modern scholarship because you have brought in a later text. Second, the prophet who leads people to avodah zerah falls in the same category as the dreamer of dreams, even if the prophesy comes true.

I do not read or believe ANY pagan myths or ideas.

...that you are aware of, yes? This is a long essay but worth the read if you are a seeker of Truth:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0690Mithras.html

There are also many, many apologetics available on this which only attests to the similarities and the need to play them down.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Basstian

Defence would evidence from another court and a trail of those similiar in belief as us be admissible

We have evidence (COURT RECORD) That Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
And to him they agreed

The evidence clearly shows that this Jesus followers have continued to grow His followers being Blessed as where the obedient Children of Isreal in days of old. While the temple Built with hands is coming to destruction the spiritual temple is being Built and becoming stronger every day with Jesus as its corner stone.
I request from the prosecution the word from the Prophets that you deem
is related to HaMoshiach

First, I would challenge the "historicity" of said record as modern scholarship has shown it to be fairly likely Paul never even met Gamaliel and he was written in because his name was known.

Second, in this supposed happening, he made an aggadic (not related to law) statement regarding his personal beliefs about the nature of survival of a religion. This statement, if it was ever uttered from his lips, has no bearing whatsoever on the guilt of the defense, especially since the defense has arrived at its position by violating Torah. Clearly, if these words were uttered, Rabban Gamaliel was mistaken. Unlike you, we don't claim our leaders were perfect or divine.

The texts correct for hamoshiach and some other info can be found here:

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf

Basically, if it says "end of days" or "Hamoshiach" then we know it is in some way related. If it doesn't then why claim otherwise?

Dauer

EDIT: I found an article on requirements that might be more thorough here:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html

If you're wondering why these websites exist, it's in order to save Jews who are being spiritually cut off from the Jewish people due to the work of missionaries or, in one understanding, having part of their souls murdered.

[Sacredstar]

Dear Dauer

I am most impressed with your contriubutions.

In a loud voice Annas stands and says "[b] YOU HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF BLASPHEMY AND OF SINS AGAINST GOD WORTHY OF DEATH ACCORDING TO THE LAW. CONSIDER YOUR WORDS CAREFULLY YOUR LIVES HANG IN THE BALANCE YOU WILL EACH BE GIVEN AN OPPURTUNITY TO DEFEND YOUR FAITH IF GOD BE WITH YOU YOU WILL SURVIVE THIS TRIAL IF NOT YOU WILL BE STONED BY THE ENDING OF THE DAY. "

One does not need to defend oneself, so stone this lamb if you wish for GOD sees all. If your GOD is true he is merciful, loving and compassionate and as no need for accusers, judgement or defence. You can kill the body but you cannot kill the soul.

Jesus said "Do not put the Lord your God to the test"

nor any of his children.


Here is a few quotes from the bible

The devil does not come to us in red or black, with horns and a tail, but as a friend, as one of us when you have not erased it from within. Even Jesus Himself was tempted by Satan, in chapters 4 of Matthew and Luke, and he was tempted precisely when he was praying and fasting... so, you and I are going to be tempted. Jesus did not fall into temptation... but He gave us a good lesson to be alert... because the Bible says:

"Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, establish, and strengthen you." (1Pet.5:8-10).


"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devils schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the air." (Eph.6:10-12).

This is why Jesus told us to pray always to Our Father saying: "lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil." (Mat.6:13).


First Temptation: "tell these stones to become bread." (Mt.4:3)... Jesus was hungry after 40 days of fasting!.

The Second Temptation to Jesus was of pride:  "Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' (Mt.4:5-6)... Since Jesus fought back with a Bible quotation, now Satan tempted Jesus with a Bible quotation, Psalm 91..

The Third Temptation to Jesus was of power, "I will give you all the world... if you will bow down and worship me." (Mt.4:9)

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it." (1Cor.10:13).

So, we have to be always sober, and watchful, as Peter says, resist him, firm in our faith... (1Pet.5:8-10)... and be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power, putting on the full armor of God so that we can take our stand against the devil's attacks (Eph.6:10-12).

Jesus fought back to the 3 temptations of the devil with 3 quotations of the Bible, and the 3 times quoting the Book of Deuteronomy: In the first temptation: Dt.8:3, "Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" (Mt.4:4)

In the second: Dt.6:16, "Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test" (Mt.4:7)

In the third: Dt.6:13, "Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only" (Mt.4:10).

So fellow Christians do not be tempted to prove your worth or defend yourself, turn the other cheek like our teacher taught us to do and prepare to be reunited with your father in heaven for you and your father are one and what stands before you is Satan, the devil within man.

And your ascension will be glorified in the heavens.

May peace be with you

Sacredstar

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Dear Dauer

I am most impressed with your contriubutions.

Thanks. I hope I'm not coming on too strongly but I knew if I did not join the prosecutors would not be done justice.

One does not need to defend oneself, so stone this lamb if you wish for GOD sees all.

You are no lamb. You are an idolator. You are not following God's will and if you die it will be according to God's will, which is expressed in the Torah.

If your GOD is true he is merciful, loving and compassionate and as no need for accusers, judgement or defence.

God forgives all transgression, but that does not mean your actions do not have consequences and it does not mean you will not have to repent for your actions. God is the True Judge and if you recognize the errors of your ways in olam ha-ba you will still find your way to Gan Eden. We act mercifully in proclaiming a death penalty, as your suffering would be many times worse in Gehenna. We are saving you from horrible torment.

You can kill the body but you cannot kill the soul.

We do not wish to kill the soul. We hope that you will know the errors of your ways, if not in this world than in the next, and that you will find yourself in Gan Eden.

Jesus said "Do not put the Lord your God to the test"

nor any of his children.

I agree. Do not put Hashem to the test. Return to the path of the mitzvot.

"Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, establish, and strengthen you." (1Pet.5:8-10).

The one who leads you to Avodah Zerah, this is the one who works for Ha-Satan. Following your yetzer hara will lead you on that path. Why turn to a mangod offered as a sacrifice, when all God desires is the offerings of your lips?

This is why Jesus told us to pray always to Our Father saying: "lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil." (Mat.6:13).

If only Jesus had listened to his own words and not become an idol.

So fellow Christians do not be tempted to prove your worth or defend yourself,

I would point out that a Christian created this thread and invited this treatment. If this is too much for anyone and you find that faced with such a critical look at your religion you are struggling with your faith (although I tend to doubt this is the case for anybody), please do as she says and save your beliefs from being thrown into jeopardy.

turn the other cheek like our teacher taught us to do

How can you turn the other cheek when you asked to be placed in a particular position? Wouldn't that require that someone had struck out at you?

[Bandit]

Last things first. Tanach is an acronym
Torah
Nevi'im prophets
Ketuvim writings

And as I am Jewish and the person you are trying to defend your life against is Jewish, I won't accept any other sources as a valid source of teaching. If you wish to use them to demonstrate the way Jesus may have acted, fine. But if it goes against what I know about the Jews of that time period or is mythical in nature I will reject it. Your real agenda should be to prove that what you are doing does not actually violate what is taught in the Tanach. If you can do that convincingly, then there is no reason to prosecute.

Ah, but the trial DOES in fact allow for both the OT and NT, so your judgement is not just.

Defence will be allowed all of the Bible and Doctrines of todays Christian Church

It should also be noted that I am a liberal Jew and I don't hold any text as sacred except to the degree that we hold it so. I don't believe God ever violates the laws of physics. But I am playing a role for this thread and will represent a more traditional view. I don't even believe in prophesy when prophesy means knowing what will come to pass, unless we're talking about intuition.

Not according to the Tanach. Are you denying the validity of the Tanach?

I hold ALL of the text sacred. And I am not a LIBERAL child of God I am a liberated child of God through Jesus. There is much prophecy being fulfilled, but you will not hear of it until after you have been decieved, then you will be even more angry than you are now.

Why do you say this is true? Is it because of man's nature? According to the prophet the mitzvot will be written on the heart. This means we will no longer intentionally sin. It will all be hardwired into us.

History has proven it. I do not need to say it. You cannot have the law written on your heart without the spirit of God in you. The law is hardwired into me as we speak.

Do you think that the Messianic Age will take place because men force its existence? It will be because God wills it. This is how we know HaMoshiach has not come. When HaMoshiach comes there will be no believing; only knowing. And this knowing will not require belief in a man-god, or even knowledge of a man-god. God worked miracles for Moshe and He will work miracles again. In the messianic age it has been said all will have the gift of prophesy.

Oh no. Because God wills it. God has already willed it. Once again, this you speak of is an eternal Kingdom. Not a physical kingdom. The Messiah does not come to establish a physical Kingdom like those of the generations of earth.

You do not understand Judaism very well. God is King. An earthly king was just a concession to humanity. Even in the messianic age, although there will be a king on the throne, God is the true King. You seem to think that your mangod is superior to Hashem. What is the difference between your peace and ours?

Your judgement is not just once again. I never said Jesus is a mangod. Those are your words, not mine. You put words into the mouth of others. What an awful judge you are. There is but one God and no man, not even Jesus will take that position.
You do not understand the Messiah very well, neither do you understand the eternal priesthood nor the postion of Moses and the high priests who stood between God an man.
You have no peace. It is written all over your speech and in accusations of innocent men and women.

Modern scholarship has shown this is more likely a later addition to the text, and I interject with modern scholarship because you have brought in a later text. Second, the prophet who leads people to avodah zerah falls in the same category as the dreamer of dreams, even if the prophesy comes true.

Modern Scolarship is MORE LIKELY forever changing. I do not listen to what mans ideas are. I listen to the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of God in me which Jesus did send back to all who recieve him. The spirit of God in us was not available in the time of Moses and neither can the law that you keep, forgive your sins. Without the spirit of God in you, you cannot have the law written on your heart.

...that you are aware of, yes? This is a long essay but worth the read if you are a seeker of Truth:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0690Mithras.html

There are also many, many apologetics available on this which only attests to the similarities and the need to play them down.

I do not pay attention to these things. That is like saying Joshua passed through the river is a myth because Moses passed through the red sea first.

Do you believe the Messiah will be born of a virgin? Or do you believe that is also a myth?
The Messiah has come

[dauer]

Ah, but the trial DOES in fact allow for both the OT and NT, so your judgement is not just.

I will not take part in any argument that requires a pharisee accept the greek testament as just as truthful as the Tanach. This is historically innaccurate and silly. If you want to see how you fare, do it on the more historically accurate terms or I will not take part. That would be like asking me to consider the upanishads as well.

I hold ALL of the text sacred. And I am not a LIBERAL child of God I am a liberated child of God through Jesus. There is much prophecy being fulfilled, but you will not hear of it until after you have been decieved, then you will be even more angry than you are now.

The part about me being liberal was not a part of my argument. It was out of character in order to clarify why I am arguing from this position. What you call liberated the Torah calls avodah zerah. You can deny it, but it will still mean you will have to face the death penalty. You have added nothing in your defense with all you have just said.

History has proven it.

How? Are you saying that because there has never been peace there never will be peace? We are speaking of the end of days.

I do not need to say it. You cannot have the law written on your heart without the spirit of God in you. The law is hardwired into me as we speak.

It is not hardwired in you. If it were, you would obey all 613 mitzvot unless you unintentionally faltered. Do you care to offer proof it is hardwired in you?

Oh no. Because God wills it.

Watch your tone. This is your trial.

God has already willed it.

Really? Prove it. I see no world peace, no 3rd Beit HaMikdash. The whole world does not know God.

Once again, this you speak of is an eternal Kingdom. Not a physical kingdom. The Messiah does not come to establish a physical Kingdom like those of the generations of earth.

Prove it using Tanach. The Tanach clearly speaks of life on earth. You have not offered any contrary evidence. Rather, you are just asserting the same things you did before without evidence. Would you care to advance this dialogue and perhaps lengthen your stay on this earth?

Your judgement is not just once again. I never said Jesus is a mangod. Those are your words, not mine. You put words into the mouth of others. What an awful judge you are. There is but one God and no man, not even Jesus will take that position.

Then you are no typical Christian. What position am I supposed to argue against? According to the general Christian position Jesus is a mangod even if he's not called that. Are you saying that Jesus was just a wise man who lived and died and had absolutely no role in divinity? In that case, yours is not avodah zerah and you are excused.

You do not understand the Messiah very well,

Messiah has nothing to do with Judaism. It's the same as idea of Christ which has absolutely nothing to do with HaMoshiach.

neither do you understand the eternal priesthood nor the postion of Moses and the high priests who stood between God an man.

Are you saying that a Jew does not understand Judaism? The priests were facilitators. They were not intermediaries. So far you have offered nothing more in defense of yourself.

You have no peace. It is written all over your speech and in accusations of innocent men and women.

I am pained to know so many have turned to avodah zerah and if my speech becomes impassioned, so be it. I will save them from further suffering in Gehenna.

Modern Scolarship is MORE LIKELY forever changing. I do not listen to what mans ideas are.

Then you'll have to accept my assertion that the text you presented was written after our argument takes place. Even if it took place earlier, so what? Even a prophet who tells a true prophesy is subject to the same judgement as a dreamer of dreams.

I listen to the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of God in me which Jesus did send back to all who recieve him.

So is this why you cannot prevent your death using the text? Because you don't care if the text disagrees with you, as long as you believe?

The spirit of God in us was not available in the time of Moses and neither can the law that you keep, forgive your sins.

Torah disagrees with you:

if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]

But if from there you seek the Eternal your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 4:29]

He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]

Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. [Psalm 34:14]

The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]


Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]

Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]


Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]

To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. [Hosea 6:6]


The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]


He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]


With what shall I come before the Eternal and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Eternal be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Eternal require of you? Only to do Justice, and to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your God. [Micah 6:6-8]

What was that you were saying? There is no need for Jesus. You are practicing avodah zerah.

And we all know that the glory of Hashem fills all of creation. What is this glory? It is related to the word for heaviness and in some places is actually represented as a fire, but from the prophets we know the kavod, God's presence, fills all of creation.

Without the spirit of God in you, you cannot have the law written on your heart.

How do you define the spirit of God and how do you exclude someone from it? When the spirit of God came upon Saul he went mad. Is this what you're trying to whore to people? You're trying to spread avodah zerah, which is a violation of mitzvot.

I do not pay attention to these things. That is like saying Joshua passed through the river is a myth because Moses passed through the red sea first.

If we were living at that time I would have documents and perhaps a live Mithraist to point to. The fact remains that the mythical stories of Jesus are found within earlier religions that existed at the same time, pagan ones, and not in Jewish scripture. I actually can offer some actual evidence from those times of the influence:

http://altreligion.about.com/library.../aa052902a.htm

Whether or not you find the material compelling, it still speaks against you. We both accept Joshua and Moses and there is no burden of proof on either of us, but you have the burden of proof for this myth.

Do you believe the Messiah will be born of a virgin? Or do you believe that is also a myth?

It does not say anywhere HaMoshiach will be of virgin birth. Almah means young woman and doesn't even refer to HaMoshiach. It refers, iirc, to someone the prophet knew.

The Messiah has come

Prove it. You offered absolutely no evidence, no refutation. You have proceeded to speak nothing although I suppose when backed into a corner that's all you can do. You may be an idolator, but God will deal mercifully with you in Olam-Haba, just and mercifully.

Dauer

[Quahom1]

Dear Dauer and Dear Faithful,

This is how I see it, after reading this entire thread:

...and the general seethed, "Get this pla'takh out of my sight."
To which the commander replied, "Only a V'rule would use such language towards another, indicating he is in fact, the less refined of the two."

Commander Ryker to the Romulan general, attempting to "dress down" LT. Worf.

Fantasy? Yes. Wise words? Yes. It is very hard to hear the important message one or another wishes to express, when rage and indignation get in the way. We (readers) aren't hearing your words you two, because we can't take our eyes off the flash of your sword play...

Both of you are quite aware that it is not what goes into the body of man that is unclean, but rather what comes out...

If I didn't respect and admire the both of you, I wouldn't bother saying a word. But then, when have I ever minded my own business?

Perhaps a truce is an option to consider.

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

This started off as a playful thread for me I went into it blind thinking that I could not take it serious but then as it unfolded I realized the persecution that Christ and his followers have had and will have till his return. He warned us that the world will hate us because they hated him first. I have to say that Dauer did an excellent job of playing the part of the Pharisees and Sadducees that demanded the death of Jesus as I was reading his responses to my defenses all I could think was Lord forgive them for they know not what they do.. and as the apostles that laid their lives down for the Lord as martyrs I understood. God calls men to him and Israel has its place in this story. Do I feel that anything Dauer said took away from my belief? No. His arguments were purely that it was mistranslation or that he would not recognize anything other than the OT. How can one defend against that. We cant. So I learned something from this and I have no regrets with my defense of my faith which God calls us to do. I am an apologist. And everytime I step up to the plate and defend my Savior he defends me in heaven. Peace Dauer. Thank you for your part in this.

Im just adding the following scripture on the prophecy of Moses that a priest of the line of Melchizedek. Its not a basis for any argument just a sidenote.

Hebrews 7:11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn And will not relent, 'You are a priest forever* According to the order of Melchizedek' "),+ 22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

[Basstian]

Well said ServantFor me this trial was never about my Faith in Christ nothing and no Charge against me would shake that.
I also thank you dauer for showing that my need to study not only my Bible but the tradition writngs you have refered to needs to increase.
I admit at this point that if the time of this trial were now I would have been drug from the courtroom and stoned not for wrong doing but for lack of ability to defend my faith with the Woed of God.
I leads me to do alot of soul searching and a desire to teach my children and my flock more everyday.
Thank you everyone who has taken part I hope that no hard feelings have arose as that was not the intent I admire the prosocution give me a year or two and we will try again *JOKING then we will see who convicts who*
Christians I fell we did very well but our in definite need of more study.
This trail may continue if you wish I will continue to post on ocassion.