Christians you are on Trial Bring your Bible and Defend your self

[Bandit]

dauer,
I am certain that if we search hard enough we can find plenty of pagan myth that will also defile the Torah. But I will not heed to any of them as you have concerning the testament of Jesus.
Neither will I bow to you or any one other than my Lord Jesus who was crucified, buried and whom God has raised from the dead as many did bare witness and by which the spirit of God in us also bares witness to us.

You seek to fulfill carnal commandents, but you cannot please God in carnal commandments because they are carnal and God must be served in spirit.
You seek for a carnal leader.
You seek a carnal city.
You seek a carnal peace.

The new jerusalem is a city not made with carnal hands but its builder and maker is God and it will be established on earth.


Quote:
Are you saying that a Jew does not understand Judaism? The priests were facilitators. They were not intermediaries.
I would like to see you walk into the Holy of Holies and come out alive. That would make the High Priest a mediator for you and not a facilitator. I would like to have seen you touch Mt Sinai when it smoked, and lived. You would indeed be dead.

1John2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
2:25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
2:26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
12:3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
12:4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
12:6And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
12:7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
12:8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
12:9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
12:11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12:12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
12:13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Show me your promise of eternal life through daily sacrifice and carnal commandments in the Torah alone.

Then explain this prophecy of Daniel to me and its timing.

[Bandit]

RE: concerning the last post of Q/V, bass, and faithful,

I used to want to be a jew or at least felt like I was part Jew. But now I realize it is only the spirit of God in me that made me feel different than what is in the world.
Also after this trial, i am glad I am not a jew and am thankful to be a gentile. I will never wish to be a Jew ever again.

I used to blame Rome for there mistakes and creeds for religion, but I see now, that if it had been left in the hands of the Jews, we would never have gotten the truth of Jesus and not known what really happened because the jews would have done aweful things with the Gospels, much worse than what Rome did.

It all makes perfect sense to me now as to why things happened the way they did.
H0w awful this will be, when they put the antiChrist upon his seat to decieve the nations.

So it all worked out for the best! and we are in the end, it is all very obvious after this trial. God did indeed turn to the Gentile because the jews rejected the offering that he sent for our propitiation for sins. Who is indeed, the risen Lord, the man Jesus.
Praise be to God!

Dauer- you are an awful judge, sorry but I hold you in contempt in your own court. asking for physical evidence on a spiritual matter.

[Faithfulservant]

Basstian how can you have a defense if everything that you say is regarded as a misinterpretation or fiction. There is no defending in those instances. I posted psalms 22 which is a direct unmistakable prophecy of the crucifixion of Jesus and he told me that they dont say he was pierced..Even though they casted lots for his clothes both in prophecy and in fact. the fact that he said my god my god why hast thou forsaken me. he was mocked and practically lynched. The virgin birth. the piercing of his side that spilt like water. his bones out of joint when they pulled his arm out of the socket. ..all of these things and they wont see it unless God wants them to see it. The best thing we can do in these instances is pray and let the words come from God.

[Sacredstar]

You cannot base a serious literal case upon uncollaborated and unproven evidence and as little of the bible is proven in either the OT or the NT, the case in a real court would be thrown out from both sides. The film 'The Man that Sued GOD' was an interesting analogy.

But Christians beware 'the last will be first and the first will be last to enter the Kingdom of GOD through creating the Kingdom of Love, not by judging each other.

Sacredstar

[Sacredstar]

Dear Daur

Make no assumptions dear one......

Did GOD not say to Moses 'I have made thee a GOD to Pharoah? Exodus Chapter 7:1

Dear All

I ask why people from all religions get so attached to names and texts? When there is only ONE with a thousand names and GOD manifests in billions of forms and GOD as brought forth many prophets and great spiritual teachers to help humanity each step of the way, but yet man makes one man over another instead of embracing the truth and the true living GOD within.

'Behold YOU are the temple of the living GOD'

Does GOD not have a thousand names and GOD does not care what the omnipotence is called as long as we live by the universal truths and spiritual laws honouring each other and in so doing we honour GOD.

Yes there will be peace on earth when man makes peace with the self and comes into oneness with GOD and has no further need for meditators, facilitors or intermediaries.

Man is at war with himself, which messengers from GOD have tried to teach us, but yet how much do we listen or hear this word of GOD? When humanity heals the need for attachment, freedom and liberation will reign.

GOD bless all and may peace be with you.

Sacredstar

[brucegdc]

I would submit that the teachings of Jesus are not antithetical to the Jewish teachings. (In fact, the arrest was for defying the *secular* authorities - that is to say, Rome - not a liturgical difference at all)

Indeed, it is quite clear if you read the gospels (written about 100 years in the FUTURE from this trial), that the one who took things off in another direction was Paul (aka Saul) - so if he's at the door, or you meet him on the road, kill him.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Neither will I bow to you

Why should you bow to me? You should bow to no man, including Jesus. Bow only to God.

You seek to fulfill carnal commandents,

What makes the mitzvot carnal? They are the path that God desires us to walk, God's will on earth.

but you cannot please God in carnal commandments because they are carnal and God must be served in spirit.

What does God desire more, that we are spiritual or that we act righteously? Kavvanah (attentiveness to God) plays a huge role in Judaism, but when there is no kavvanah we still have our obligations to keep.

You seek for a carnal leader.

No I don't. God is the only King. You deified a man.

You seek a carnal city.

It is the city God has promised, God's holy city.

You seek a carnal peace.

How is my peace different from yours?

The new jerusalem is a city not made with carnal hands but its builder and maker is God and it will be established on earth.

So how is that different than my city? According to some the new Beit HaMikdash already exists on a spiritual level and God will be the one to restore it.

I would like to see you walk into the Holy of Holies and come out alive. That would make the High Priest a mediator for you and not a facilitator. I would like to have seen you touch Mt Sinai when it smoked, and lived. You would indeed be dead.

How does that make him an intermediary? The kohein gadol played a role, but was not an intermediary. Indeed, the word for sacrifice in Hebrew is qorban which means to come close or draw near and it is the individual who is doing thus, not the kohein.

1John2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
2:25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
2:26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
12:3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
12:4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
12:6And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
12:7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
12:8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
12:9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
12:11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12:12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
12:13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Wonderful. Slander.

Show me your promise of eternal life through daily sacrifice and carnal commandments in the Torah alone.

Your mind is on reward and punishment, which I suppose is normal for a Christian. The mitzvot are a way to draw ever closer to God. That is why when someone sins it is a missing of the mark, and when someone makes good on the wrong they have done it is a return. As it says in Pirkei Avot:

"3. Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He would say: Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the fear of Heaven should be upon you." Avot 1:3

This word fear in Hebrew is of course really related to the idea of awe, which is really an ever-growing awareness of God's presence in the world. Olam HaBa is discussed very little in the written Torah, and much more in Oral Torah and Aggadah. The righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come. There is no hell to condemn people to. This is a creation of the Christianity in order to lead people with fear, like a wolf herding sheep.

Then explain this prophecy of Daniel to me and its timing.

Better than explaining it myself, I will let Rashi explain because he does an excellent job of it.

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...showrashi=true

Daniel is not a prophetic book. It belongs in Writings but the Church moved it to serve its purposes.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

RE: concerning the last post of Q/V, bass, and faithful,

I used to want to be a jew or at least felt like I was part Jew. But now I realize it is only the spirit of God in me that made me feel different than what is in the world.
Also after this trial, i am glad I am not a jew and am thankful to be a gentile. I will never wish to be a Jew ever again.

I used to blame Rome for there mistakes and creeds for religion, but I see now, that if it had been left in the hands of the Jews, we would never have gotten the truth of Jesus and not known what really happened because the jews would have done aweful things with the Gospels, much worse than what Rome did.

It all makes perfect sense to me now as to why things happened the way they did.
H0w awful this will be, when they put the antiChrist upon his seat to decieve the nations.

So it all worked out for the best! and we are in the end, it is all very obvious after this trial. God did indeed turn to the Gentile because the jews rejected the offering that he sent for our propitiation for sins. Who is indeed, the risen Lord, the man Jesus.
Praise be to God!

As a Jew I find most of what you just said and much of what other people have been saying extremely rude and condescending. I came here to prosecute because it was a role that was asked.

Dauer- you are an awful judge, sorry but I hold you in contempt in your own court. asking for physical evidence on a spiritual matter.

Well, I would say I'm an awful judge because I'm using phrases like "mangod" and such that can be of no benefit. Really, I don't think this case should have ever been about proving Christianity because it can't be done. I was really hoping someone would try to defend Christian beliefs and practices. Regardless of whether Jesus was the messiah or not, it does not suddenly validate using him as an object of worship. I really have no idea how anyone could defend their myths in a court of law.

Further, this whole thing to me has been such a farce as I said in my first posts. There is a mishna in Makkot that states one execution in 70 years is a murderous court. The other important thing to note here is that only the Sanhedrin, the High Court, can enact such a sentence. In Sanhedrin 4:5 it states

"Man was created single [in the person of Adam] to teach you that anyone who eliminates one person in Israel, the Torah considers it as though an entire world has been eliminated; and anyone that sustains one person in Israel, the Torah considers it as though an entire world has been sustained…. And [man was created single], to tell you the greatness of the Holy One, a person can mint many coins with one mold, and they will all be identical in appearance; and the King of Kings…made all of mankind from the mold of Adam the first, and no one person is identical to the other. Thus, each individual person must say "for me was the world created."

Clearly the value of a human life is very high. But there's more.

In Deut it is found that there must be at least two witnesses. These witnesses must agree with each other when they are each examined individually. The person commiting the crime has to be warned ahead of time that they are commiting a crime. Also, the person who charges another is required to personally carry out the sentence, and if it is found that they were lying about the other person, they will face the same sentence. Some direct quotes that are relevant:

Requirements for Conviction 

Mishnah Sanhedrin 5.1-4
5.1  They used to prove witnesses with seven inquiries: In what week of years?  In what year?  In what month?  On what day?  In what hour?  In what place?  (R. Jose says: [They aked only,] On what day?  In what hour?  In what place?) [They also asked:] Do you recognize him? Did you warn him?  If a man committed idolatry [they asked the witnesses], What did he worship? and, How did he worship it?
2.  The more a judge tests the evidence the more he is deserving of praise:  Ben Zakkai once tested the evidence even to inquiring about the stalks of figs.  Wherein do the inquiries differ from the cross-examination?  If to the inquiries one [of the two witnesses] answered, "I do not know," their evidence becomes invalid; but if to the cross-examination one answered, "We do not know," their evidence remains valid.  Yet if they contradict one another, whether during the inquiries or the cross-examination, their evidence becomes invalid.
3.  If one said, "On the second of the month," and the other said, "On the third," their evidence remains valid since one may have known the month was intercalated and the other did not know the month was intercalated; but if one said, "On the third," and the other said, "On the fifth," their evidence becomes invalid.  If one said, "At the second hour," and the other said, "At the third," their evidence remains valid; but if one said, "At the third hour," and the other said, "At the fifth," their evidence becomes invalid.  R. Judah says: It remains valid; but if one said, "At the fifth hour," and the other said, "At the seventh," their evidence becomes invalid since at the fifth hour the sun in in the east and at the seventh it is in the west.
4.  They afterward brought in the second witness and proved him.  If their words were found to agree together they begin [to examine the evidence] in favor of acquittal.  If one witness said, "I have somewhat to argue in favor of his acquittal," or if one of the disciples said, "I have somewhat to argue in favor of his acquittal," they bring him up and set him among them and he does not come down from thence the whole day.  If there is any substance in his words they listen to him.  Even if the accused said, "I have somewhat to argue in favor of my acquittal," they listen to him, provided there is any substance to his words.


Postponement of Final Sentence Until the Day After Trial Under the Mishnah

Mishnah Sanhedrin 5.5
If they found him innocent they set him free; otherwise they leave his sentence over until the morrow.  [In the meantime] they went together in pairs, they ate a little (but they used to drink no wine the whole day), and they discussed the matter all night, and early on the morrow they came to the court.  He that favored acquittal says: "I declared him innocent and I still declare him innocent"; and he that favored conviction says, "I declared him guilty and I still declare him guilty."  He that favored conviction may now acquit, but he that had favored acquittal [the day before] may not retract and favor conviction."


Capital Punishment To Be By Stoning 

Mishnah Sanhedrin 6.1-4
1. When sentence has been passed, they take him forth to stone him.  The place of stoning was outside the court, as it is written, Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp.  One stands at the door of the court with a towel in his hand, and another, mounted on a horse, far away from him [but where he is able] to see him.  If one [in court] said, "I have somewhat to argue in favor of his acquittal," that man waves the towel and the horse runs and stops him [the stoner].  Even if he himself said, "I have somewhat to argue in favor of my acquittal," they must bring him back, be it four times or five, provided that there is any substance in his words.  If they found him innocent, they set him free; otherwise he goes forth to be stoned.  A herald goes out before him [announcing], "Such-a-one, the son of such-a-one, is going forth to be stoned for that he committed such or such an offense.  Such-a-one and such-a-one are witnesses against him.  If any man knoweth anything in favor of his acquittal, come let him plead it."
2.  When he was about ten cubits from the place of stoning they used to say to him, "Make your confession," for such is the way of them that have been condemned to death to make confession, for every one that makes his confession has a share in the world to come.  For so we have found it with Achan.  Joshua said to him, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the Lord, the God of Israel, and make confession unto him, and tell me now what you have done; hide it not from me.  And Achan answered Joshua and said, Of a truth I have sinned against the Lord, the God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done.  Whence do we learn that his confession made atonement for him?  It is written, And Joshua said, Why have you troubled us?  The Lord shall trouble thee this day--this day you shall be troubled, but in the world to come you shall not be troubled.  If he knows not how to make his confession they say to him, "Say, May my death be an atonement for all my sins."  R. Judah says: If he knew that he was condemned because of false testimony he should say, "Let my death be an atonement for all my sins excepting this sin."  They said to him: If so, every one would speak after this fashion to show his innocense."
3.  When he was four cubits from the place of stoning, they stripped off his clothes.  A man is kept covered in front and a woman both in front and behind.  So R. Judah.  But the Sages say: a man is stoned naked but a woman is not stoned naked.
4.  The place of stoning was twice the height of a man.  One of the witnesses knocked him down on his loins; if he turned over on his heart the witness turned him over again on his loins.  If he straightaway died that sufficed; but if not, the second took the the stone and dropped it on his heart.  If he straightaway died, that sufficed; but if not, he was stoned by all Israel, for it is written, The hand of the witnesses shall be firt upon him to put him to death and afterward all the hand of all the people.  All that have been stoned must be hanged.  So R. Eliezer.  But the Sages say: None is hanged save the blasphemer and the idolater.  A man is hanged with his face to the people and a woman with her face to the gallows.  So R. Eliezer.  But the Sages say: A man is hanged but a woman is not hanged. R. Eliezer said to them: Did not Simeon ben Shetah hang women in Ashkelon?  They answered: He hanged eighty women, whereas two ought not to be judged in one day.  How did they hang a man?  They put a beam into the ground and a piece of wood juttted from it.  The two hand were brought together and it was hanged.  R. Jose days:  The beam was made to lean against a wall and one hanged the corpse thereon as butchers do.  And they let it down at once: if it remained there overnight a negative command is thereby transgressed, for it is is written, His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall surely bury him the same day; for he that is hanged is a curse against God; as if to say, Why was this one hanged?  Because he blessed the Name, and the Name of Heaven was found profaned. 


Crimes Meriting Capital Punishment 

Mishnah 7.4
These are they that are to be stoned: he that has connexion with his mother, his father's wife, his daughter-in-law, a male, or a beast, and the woman that suffers connexion with a beast, and the blasphemer and the idolator, and he that offers any of his seed to Molech, and he that has a familiar spirit and a soothsayer, and he that profanes the Sabbath, and he tht curses his father or his mother, and he that has a connexion with a girl that is betrothed, and he that beguiles [others to commit idolatry], and he that leads [a whole town] astray, and the sorcerer and a stubborn and rebellious son.

Verdicts in Capital Trials Only to be Reached in Daytime 
[Under the Mishnah Tractate, Sanhedrin]

Mishnah Sanhedrin 4.1
In noncapital cases they hold trial during the daytime and the verdict may be reached during the night; in capital cases they hold the trial during the daytime and the verdict must also be reached during the daytime.  In noncapital cases the verdict, whether of acquittal or of conviction, may be reached the same day; in capital cases a verdict of acquittal may be reached on the same day, but a verdict of conviction not until the following day.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...sanhedrin.html

As you can see, this whole thing was a farce, also because the Sadducees and Pharisees were freely mingling to condemn these people when in reality the S and P where two very conflicting groups.

Dauer

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

I would submit that the teachings of Jesus are not antithetical to the Jewish teachings. (In fact, the arrest was for defying the *secular* authorities - that is to say, Rome - not a liturgical difference at all)

Indeed, it is quite clear if you read the gospels (written about 100 years in the FUTURE from this trial), that the one who took things off in another direction was Paul (aka Saul) - so if he's at the door, or you meet him on the road, kill him.

I dont understand? Because he was Roman? OR because his purpose was to go out and spread the gospel to the gentiles? Paul was one of many that saw Jesus after his resurrection. If it wasnt for Paul teaching the gentiles the gospel of Christ there probably wouldnt be any Christians because the rest that had the purpose of teaching to the Jewish people were killed as well. Do you know that a Christian somewhere is praying for the nation of Israel daily?? I do have them in my prayers. I dont hate them for rejecting Christ.. because I know that someday they will be reconciled with God. When Jesus returns every eye shall see him and know and fall on their face and worship him. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Judah will be established in that day and there will be 1,000 years on this earth with Jesus as king.. he will have a NEW name and you will know him as the HaMoshaich in which you have been waiting for. That is what the bible tells us Christians.. The wonderful thing to me is that even though the world hates and rejects him.. he will always love those in the world.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Dear Daur

Make no assumptions dear one......

Did GOD not say to Moses 'I have made thee a GOD to Pharoah? Exodus Chapter 7:1

I don't know if you or anyone else realized this but I was playing a role as I am a very liberal Jew and believe all paths lead to God, that God does not interfere with the laws of physics, etc. But it does not say "I have made you a God." It says, "I have made you a lord over Pharoah." This is a common error in Christian texts because in (Greek I think) there is only one word for lord. So God and lord look the same. This is the problem with a translation of a translation that I have pointed out a few times in this thread, another problem is that the septuagint was so horribly corrupt, something Origen freely spoke of, as well as St. Jerome, and this problem continued into the Latin Vulgate and the KJV. The translators of the KJV didn't even know Hebrew all that well, and all the Jews had been expelled from England so nobody could help them translate Tanach.

Basically God is saying that He made Moshe a judge and chastiser, or at least that's how Rashi understands it based on Targum Onkelos and Tanchuma, Va'era 9. So I have no idea how this relates to the thread.

But I have no interest in continuing this thread if it is unwanted. As I said (I think in my first post) I will gladly leave.

Dauer

[dauer]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

I would submit that the teachings of Jesus are not antithetical to the Jewish teachings. (In fact, the arrest was for defying the *secular* authorities - that is to say, Rome - not a liturgical difference at all)

Indeed, it is quite clear if you read the gospels (written about 100 years in the FUTURE from this trial), that the one who took things off in another direction was Paul (aka Saul) - so if he's at the door, or you meet him on the road, kill him.

I think you're probably correct. It seems like Jesus was probably heavily influenced by Hillel, who was the favorite of the two schools of Hillel and Shammai. But it also must be noted that all the information we have about Jesus has been heavily treated with Roman religious material, foreign teachings, etc. so that the historical Jesus becomes almost inaccessible. And all attempts to find the historical Jesus seem to yield very varied answers. My take:

Jesus was most likely a Pharisee influenced heavily by Hillel and also by the Essenes who put somewhat less emphasis on certain practices and at the same time put more emphasis on things like purity of thought itself. He may or may not have been chastizing some of the Pharisees around him, but it must be remembered that Pharisee is not synonymous with Sage and was actually more of a socio-religio-political movement in which the Sages played a role. Even within the Talmud itself there are chastisements of certain types of pharisees who act in a particular way.

By the time these writings were put together by a non-Jewish audience, they may have not known the difference between (or been looking for polemical material against) a Pharisee, a Sage, and "that particular type of Pharisee."

It is also possible that, like many Pharisees, Jesus was actually chastising Sadducees for their behavior, and that for the later audience to whom Sadducees barely existed and Pharisees were the future of the Jewish people, it would have made more sense to condemn them.

It is also possible that a polemic was a way to gain favor among the Romans.

A type of writing very common among the Jews of that time was midrash, in which a question about the text is answered through a story, which makes it possible to relate to a text from a contemporary position. It is possible that some of the stories about Jesus were a form of midrash. It's also possible miracle stories were a way of popularizing the Jesus movement.

There are a lot of uncertainties, even about things I may have made sound more certain.

Dauer

[Bandit]

I don't know if you or anyone else realized this but I was playing a role as I am a very liberal Jew and believe all paths lead to God,

We know it is just role playing Dauer, that is all we are doing too.

We are just showing our love for our Lord Jesus and our love for God, to you.
Peace and love and joy in the Holy Ghost.

[Basstian]

But it also must be noted that all the information we have about Jesus has been heavily treated with Roman religious material, foreign teachings, etc. so that the historical Jesus becomes almost inaccessible.

JUDGES STATEMENT

As a Judge I believe this to be one of the most important points to be made in this trial so far.
As much as

Jesus was actually chastising Sadducees for their behavior, and that for the later audience to whom Sadducees barely existed and Pharisees were the future of the Jewish people, it would have made more sense to condemn them.

He preached several very strong messages about the leadership of His day and how thru there teachings they had led Gods people from the truth.

I feel safe in saying the Jews in 33ad would not have stould very well in a trial before Moses ,Aaron and the Leaders of the Tribes. Because of traditions that had been added or Changed or forgotton during captivity in Babylon.
In alot of ways that is how Jesus managed 3 yrs of teaching and debating with the scribes before His appointed time had come. Without being brought to trial.
We Christian today seem to have followed the same path. Peter Paul Stephen John stood and spoke bodly before there accussers. They did well there faith was evident and there actions proof of the purity of there devotion to Gods Laws. They faired well at these trials thouhg had they been brought before Moses and Aaron etc may have faced the same verdict the jews of there time would have.

In the same manner that the time span away from Sinai and 33 ad Had changed the Jewish religion . The Time span between 33 ad and Now has changed Christianity. We similiar to the Jews were held captive by the church of rome. The religion we came out of that captivity with is Far diferent than the religion shown to us in the Book of Acts Many Doctrinal Changes that would be considered Idolatry even Blasphemy to the Church of acts exist in our religion today. The fact is I knew we did not have a very good chance being found inocent and am thankful to our friend dauer for the awesome role play that brought us all to this realization. MAKE NO MISTAKE I dont feel it was proven that Jesus was not the messiah or that He is not the Son of God
it only to me proves we have a need to do everything possible to erase the untruths from our doctrine and return to the faith and religion of our fathers.

Dauer I would like to see the results of a trial of your Religious beliefs (not personal) but of the Jewish community setting The encampment of Israel just before entering the promise land. Using the laws handed to your forfathers to see how your religion would fair.

This Trial may continue if you wish or we can now discuss how it has left us feeling or what we have learned

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I dont understand? Because he was Roman? OR because his purpose was to go out and spread the gospel to the gentiles? .

have you read the Pauline Conspiracy, hosted on this very site?

if not, i would heartily encourage you to read it. it's a bit long, but it's academically and theologically sound.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ne_conspiracy/

Brian has even offered to post up any refutations to this article.

[Sacredstar]

Dear Dauer

Yes I understood and I enjoyed your explanations, very good and thank you for the explanation about the Moses translation, I am particularly interested in these different translations and how things were taken out of context and written to suit whoever at the time.

So once again thank you and bless you.

Sacredstar