Christians you are on Trial Bring your Bible and Defend your self - Page 7

Basstian · 02-07-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

I consider modern christianity a completely separate religion with more similarities to Mithraism than Judaism

Here is where Dauer judging the Church of today has a very good case.
Study what little is known of Mithriasm (The most popular cult among the Roman soldiers) and you will find disturbing similiarities in our Doctrine today.

I believe it a sad thing that Christianity does not today resemble Judiasm in the devotion to Gods and the gospel of Jesus only. Doctrines of pagen cults have been "Christianized" and are still being practiced today in many ways through out our religion. Due mainly to the leaders of the roman church coverted from these cults and placed in high leadership rankingings in the early church more for political gain than for there devotion to God and Jesus.

Hundreds of years later nobody questians why Christmas is on the 25th of Dec. Or why easter is called easter and why our children hunt for eggs. Why there is a week long celebration called lent. Why a sunrise service or Mass

Or why we dont sit on the sabbath with our Jewish brethren and hear the law and the prophets and debate the messiah scripture there.

Nobody notices how the Churches built today all resemble the same layout of
the worship places of Mithriasm. with even some of the oldest Cathedrials and monestaries being built over them in europe.

Martin Luther and others started a reform but stopped just after leaving the oppressive rule of the papel power at that time.
That wasnt far enough to convert Christianity back to true Christianity. The type found when they were called Christians in antioch.

I fear like the Leaders of Israel of old lead the people into Idoltary. So did the Church of Rome our people. What amazes me is it is the very same gods they were lead astray to Ashteroth Tammuz even Baal.

Jesus was set against the traditions of men being used as doctrine for this reason.
He warned leaders of Decieving People and leading them away with Divers Doctrine

Had we the Doctrine of 33ad and the scripture used by the apostles this trail may be going well for us.

Just a thought my fellow Christians Maybe it is time to return to our roots to the faith handed us in the beginning.

God be with you all

dauer · 02-07-2005, 05:27 PM

I am sorry if your children may have read that song and I am sorry if anyone was terribly offended by it. It is not speaking specifically about Christianity and it is not generalizing Christianity. It is rather speaking about a specific type of spirituality that would use the spiritual experience like a drug. I find the song particularly poignant and that's why I included it in my post. I did not include it to offend. If you examine the words of the song you will see that what I say about its intended meaning is true. They use Christianity as a model because they are themselves Christians (and religious enough to preach in their songs, I might add, against the excesses that accompany rock music and against the tendencies of modern governments, which is very refreshing in that genre.)

I could give an example of another song by them that embraces spirituality and/or Christianity. For example:

Aerials

Life is a waterfall,
We're one in the river,
And one again after the fall.

Swimming through the void
We hear the word,
We lost ourselves,
But we find it all?

Cause we are the ones that want to play,
Always want to go,
But you never want to stay,

And we are the ones that want to chose,
Always want to play,
But you never want to lose.

Aerials, in the sky,
When you lose small mind,
You free your life.

Life is a waterfall,
We drink from the river,
Then we turn around and put up our walls.

Swimming through the void
We hear the word,
We lost ourselves,
But we find it all?

Cause we are the ones that want to play,
Always want to go,
But you never want to stay,

And we are the ones that want to chose,
Always want to play,
But you never want to lose.

Aerials, in the sky,
When you lose small mind,
You free your life.
Aerials, so up high,
When you free your eyes,
Eternal prize.
Aerials, in the sky,
When you lose small mind,
You free your life.
Aerials, so up high,
When you free your eyes,
Eternal prize.

or, even more concretely is this song (although the meaning of the reference has been debated, the controversy over its meaning was clearly created by the vocalist, Serj Tankien)

Wake up,
Grab a brush and put a little (makeup),
Grab a brush and put a little,
Hide the scars to fade away the (shakeup)
Hide the scars to fade away the,
Why'd you leave the keys upon the table?
Here you go create another fable

You wanted to,
Grab a brush and put a little makeup,
You wanted to,
Hide the scars to fade away the shakeup,
You wanted to,
Why'd you leave the keys upon the table,
You wanted to,

I don't think you trust,
In, my, self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die, Die,

Wake up,
Grab a brush and put a little (makeup),
Grab a brush and put a little,
Hide the scars to fade away the (shakeup)
Hide the scars to fade away the,
Why'd you leave the keys upon the table?
Here you go create another fable

You wanted to,
Grab a brush and put a little makeup,
You wanted to,
Hide the scars to fade away the shakeup,
You wanted to,
Why'd you leave the keys upon the table,
You wanted to,

I don't think you trust,
In, my, self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die
In my, self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die

Father, Father, Father, Father,
Father/ Into your hands/I/commend my spirit,
Father, into your hands,

Why have you forsaken me,
In your eyes forsaken me,
In your thoughts forsaken me,
In your heart forsaken, me oh,

Trust in my self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die,
In my self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die.

So if you only saw that song as vulgarity, it is because you chose to only see that song as vulgarity. It conveyed an important message about the way people approach spirituality and that is why I included it. The above song, by the way, is about an abused woman. But clearly they were trying to create a little controversy with the language they were using.

Dauer

Ciel · 02-07-2005, 06:41 PM

By whatever humanity that speaks such words, and even more so in response to a woman. NO. Is the world so devalued that it is acceptable and considered okay. NO, never can such sentiment be. When we stand and say, enough is enough, for we were born to be higher mortal than this evaluation. Respect is paramount for each other in all things. Be it here, there or anywhere.

Bandit · 02-07-2005, 08:19 PM

this is nothing new. Half of the lyrics out there today are vulgar, deceptive, full of rape, hate, envy, strife, bitterness, murder child abuse, theft, racism, darkness, destruction, war, terrorism, cursing...

Not only is it in the lyrics but in the headlines, the hollywood movies, playstation and video games AND plastered all over the web..then everyone wonders why people are so mixed up.

I dont put my hope in any of these things.

Ciel · 02-07-2005, 08:57 PM

And the very reason why we do not need to applaud or give reverence to them here.
Praise the light, diminish the darkness.
Seek beauty. don't pay the tolls that hell demands.
Respect the light of goodness, for it is.
Anything other is not.
And know you are here as peace keeper, to applaud a greater moral consensus than the status quo that accepts moral degeneration.
Mmmmm ....Am I walking in Memphis?

Faithfulservant · 02-07-2005, 09:14 PM

No Blue it did not make me think about anything other than F this F that...I couldnt see beyond that..

I accept your apology Dauer and I understand the point you were trying to make. Its very hard for me to take serious anything else you've posted on this subject after reading that, though. I choose not to listen to music like that for a reason.

dauer · 02-07-2005, 09:30 PM

Ciel,

don't we sometimes have to descend into the darkness in order to raise it up?

Fs,

Are you saying that because you disagree with the medium in which a point is conveyed, that now you have difficulty taking the points -- which stand on their own separate from the one who delivers them -- seriously? (and let it be acknowledged that I did not use this medium to offend, but rather because it made the statement about spirituality used as a drug very clear. If I had known it would get this much backlash I would not have used it.) It sounds to me like you're just looking for a reason to discredit and devalue what I've been saying, and this is a good out for you. It would be much easier if you didn't have to sincerely answer what I say. My words speak for themselves. Even the words of a murderer speak for themselves. If you always judge the words by the source you may miss some of the most important lessons of your life.

Dauer

Faithfulservant · 02-07-2005, 10:29 PM

LOL Ditto Dauer

Ciel · 02-08-2005, 12:28 AM

dauer,
When I see proof in this world that darkness is elevated by the illumination of light, that would be enlightenment indeed.
Light is light and darkness dark, each to their own domain.

Seen from the value of all that darkness would wish to achieve it would call its own illumination dark, not light.

Transcendence is a balance between the two that allows the scales of justice to work in accordance with the higher authority of our creator.
If there had been a greater balance at the time of Christ I believe far more would have been achieved by a living man beyond sacrifice, in the unity of all.

dauer · 02-08-2005, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciel

dauer,
When I see proof in this world that darkness is elevated by the illumination of light, that would be enlightenment indeed.
Light is light and darkness dark, each to their own domain.

But where there is much light there is little darkness and where there is much darkness there is little light. Sometimes there is a blockage that does not allow for the light to fully extend. In order for it to do so, some of those who bear the light must journey into the darkness and open the darkness to the light. This is where free will becomes most important. We can choose to risk diminishing our light in order to remove blockages and allow for a greater brilliance.

If you don't take your message to the streets, the streets will take their message to every place you can't reach. That's what SOAD is doing. If their light is diminished, it is only to illuminate the masses.

Quote:

Seen from the value of all that darkness would wish to achieve it would call its own illumination dark, not light.

What is this in reference to?

Quote:

Transcendence is a balance between the two that allows the scales of justice to work in accordance with the higher authority of our creator.
If there had been a greater balance at the time of Christ I believe far more would have been achieved by a living man beyond sacrifice, in the unity of all.

There are many models for light and dark. I'm using one. You're using another.

Dauer

Bass, I just noticed your long post. I have heard that in the US for a while Christmas was banned.

Bandit · 02-08-2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Here is where Dauer judging the Church of today has a very good case.
Study what little is known of Mithriasm (The most popular cult among the Roman soldiers) and you will find disturbing similiarities in our Doctrine today.

Basstian we all know what Rome did with it. We do not have to claim those things today and can move on now in the truth that we have in the bible. If we look at religion and who did what, we will get nowhere. I would also like to point out, though YES I believe that Jesus and faith in Jesus was born out of Israel, it did not come out of what is known today as Judaism. Neither is it what is claimed today as Christianity.

We should be thankful that Rome (gentile) did take it. Because if it had been left in the hands of the Jews, we would most likely not even know about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That is how much they hated Jesus for his claims to be the Son of God. Anything that would have upheld Jesus as a Savior would have been destroyed.
It was not just Rome who put Jesus to death it was also the Jews who made that choice. None of them understood what Jesus was establishing outside of the 12 (or 11) and a few that believed in him.

But it had to be that way.

Dont put your all in what the laws of Israel were, because History before Jesus will show that they were not all that righteous as some may believe. There was a specific LINE of flesh and descandants that was righteous. The Israelites were a chosen people for a purpose and that final purpose was not to establish a specific religon or put one race of people above another.

dauer · 02-08-2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

LOL Ditto Dauer

I'm not suggesting you disregard your sense of Truth, just that you take every statement separately rather than dismissing them all because you disagree with my posting a certain song. Aren't you supposed to walk in his ways? If anything I have made an accidental, unwillful error. If you hold that against me you have strayed very far.

Dauer

dauer · 02-08-2005, 01:21 AM

The righteous stumble seven times and still they are called righteous, or something to that effect, yes?

The prophets played a specific role in society. They didn't go around praising those doing good. That would be pointless. They singled out the ones doing bad because these are the ones God had issue with.

Why would God create man if He knew he would be sinful and would constantly stray? I am assuming God has omniscience unless I am mistaken about the Christian deity.

Dauer

Basstian · 02-08-2005, 04:03 AM

LoL never thought this thread would amount to much lol

Quote:

We should be thankful that Rome (gentile) did take it. Because if it had been left in the hands of the Jews, we would most likely not even know about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That is how much they hated Jesus for his claims to be the Son of God. Anything that would have upheld Jesus as a Savior would have been destroyed.
It was not just Rome who put Jesus to death it was also the Jews who made that choice. None of them understood what Jesus was establishing outside of the 12 (or 11) and a few that believed in him.

Bandit and others I pose another question reading acts and the letters written to the Churches of the Day would Paul, Peter, John, Matthew and the others
See what they had intended the Church to be.

As far as not being Jewish read the numbers of how many jews were converted in acts. then read where most of the debates over Jesus took place in the towns of the gentiles.

You will notice in history the church took care of the poor the widows and such in Acts. After rome and the changes they built cathedrals and made bishops wealthy with little concern for the poor. Doctrine was put into place that made the Church the only way to God. Gave Men who's desires were no longer to spread the gospel as in the beginning but to spread the power of the church.
The ideas of stomping out judiasm because of what they did to Christ was motivated buy the need to control the people. If everything that had the hint of Jewish tradition were eliminated from the church. Than Christians would be totally reliant on the leaders to decide and change doctrine at will.

This I dont see was a good thing more like the mistake God said Israel made in deciding they wanted a King instead of judges appointed by God Himself.
It lead them into a very Dark era in their History Corupt kings and terrible results as predicted by Samuel.

There like for Israel is Hope For the truth in our Faith but it will take people seeking it and desire. If Jesus truely is the word made Flesh than Gods word not false Doctrine along with faith has to be the way to a closer and deeper relationship with Him.

I am often shunned for trying to lead people to Christ and Truth at the same time; saying I am confusing them etc etc.
To me They are One and the Same Think the Bible says that somewhere

Bandit · 02-08-2005, 04:38 AM

Right Right Right Basstian! You are right in everything you say.
You look REAL close at the Book of Acts and you will see where Rome messed up with the doctrines they created.
See, Acts and the book of Revelations were the last two books to be added before they sealed the bible. Nearly 100 years after the bible was established.
They did not get a chance to mess with those two books. They are the purest of all the New Testament.

Stay in the Book of Acts for awhile and you will see what really happened. I think it is odd to this day, the Christian church fails to acknowledge Acts and pretty much blows it off.

Dont worry too much about who said what and did what outside in the secular history of it all. Yes it is all there in History. But it is also all there in the Book of Acts.
If they had not sealed it when they did, we would be stuck with a whole bunch of God only knows what today.

You are on track with this Basstian. The Jew/Gentile thing. The earth being subject to Roman power.
What the letters Paul wrote are about. It is NOT the same thing religion today is proclaiming.
And it ALL ties into the Old Testament.

The Jews were filled with the Holy Ghost, but then Peter declared that by his mouth would also the gentile hear and be filled with the Holy Ghost. We cannot change the fact that Rome ruled during that time and thought they could do it by creating a religion... but it was all for a reason!

See, we have the bible now. They did not have it when Rome started all the creeds, traditions and such. But within the falseness of it all, the Truth has been hidden and we can find it because we have access to it in the Word.

See Basstian, the bible was not for them as things were happening. It all went word of mouth.
THEY are the things in the bible that testify to US. They had no bible outside the O.T. and no one had immediate access to it.
It was for us in this day in age. Because God knew we were going to need it to be able to stand.

Don't feel like you have to go against the established religions of today as you see things unfold. It is there for the taking if you want it and all these other things must come to pass.

Throw a little faith and obedience into the fire of the Word, and you got a BOMB of Holy Ghost and power

.