Christians you are on Trial Bring your Bible and Defend your self

[Faithfulservant]

I told you I accepted your apology :P

Originally Posted by dauer

I'm not suggesting you disregard your sense of Truth, just that you take every statement separately rather than dismissing them all because you disagree with my posting a certain song. Aren't you supposed to walk in his ways? If anything I have made an accidental, unwillful error. If you hold that against me you have strayed very far.

Dauer

[AveCaesar111]

[QUOTE=Bandit]defense:

I want to be a Jew also! A Jew who will not reject Jesus. Not a Christian any more, but an engrafted gentile into the Jew. Rome caused many problems for us, Rome has fallen... but I will still stand in the shoes Jesus stood in, though I be crucified or stoned. That is why we are being tested in these last 100 years. That is why we have access to the complete bible in all languages.

It is almost like 1000 years of deception have passed and here we are in the latter rain with the truth in abundance at our fingertips.

As People who are born again of the spirit through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross, we are grafted into the Jewish people. Not necessarily physically, but we are spiritual inheritors of God's covenant with Abraham. Christianity is just a name, a label, given to the the Jewish Believers in Christ in Antioch during the first and second centuries. Christianity itself is a sect of Judaism, like the pharisees and sadducees, the zealots and essenes, among others.
Hosea 2:23: And I will sow her unto me in the earth and i will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy, and i will say to them which were not my people; thou art my people; and they shall say, thou art my God.

Jesus Christ Grafts us into the people of Israel, for without Christ the Gentile has no way of being saved, since before Him we had no covenant.

So I think it is Ok to think of yourselves as being kin to the Jewish people. They are our spiritual forefathers and without them we would have neither a Bible or Jesus the Messiah. Also no one really knows who might be a descendant of the ten lost tribes of Israel, I've heard that there is a Jewish saying claiming that any of the "non-Jewish" people who treat the Jews with love, are actually desendants of the lost tribes. I dont know how credible that is, but its something i heard recently. Who knows really, it'd be hard to prove that one way or the other

Defence: As it is Written: Behold I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Romans 9:33)

Also bear in mind you ar not the only Christians to disagree with the Catholic church. Take the Anabaptist for example, who the modern baptists claim as predecessors who were persecuted by the Catholic church for claiming that faith in Christ is personal, and all people are equal in Christ, and don't need an elaborate hierarchy of priests to intercede for them. The Roman church became in many ways similar to the hierarchical Ancient Jewish Temple that Jesus protested as hypocrites and vipers who stifle real relationships with God.
The Ultiumate Defense: The Holy Spirit wil utterly convince anyone who repents of their sins through the sacrifice of Christ. Anyone who is brave enough to put Christ's promise to the test and repent through him will receive all the convincing they need directly from the Lord.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9.

Thanks all, I will quit rambling now. Sorry if this is seems so bumbling and disorganized...thats just me.

[Bandit]

i am right there with you on that AveCaesar111 & Welcome Aboard.
He has given us the spirit of adoption.

i was telling my dad recently how i feel like i am part Jew on the inside.
He said, "That is the Holy Ghost working in you why you feel that way."
I love my dad.

i look at the master plan & i am in such awe at the Lords glory & beauty & where he has brought us from & where he will take us & one day let us share in His glory for eternity.
I give Him all glory & honor & praise & glory to the Lamb who sits on the throne .

[streetbob2006]

Originally Posted by dauer

Prosecution

Listen! You heretics have forgotten the words of Torah:

Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!" [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst."

You have followed your dreamer of dreams into worship of himself, a man-god, a god whom your ancestors did not know. He gave you signs of wonder and you failed the test. You succombed and turned from God. Do you not know as it says in Torah:

Numbers 23:19 G-d [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.

Hashem did in fact proclaim, "Exodus 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy G-d, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no elohim acherim before me." But you have made this man into an elohim, as the word is also used for a person of authority, and placed him before God.

I recognize similarities between your beliefs, and those of the Mithraists. But I suppose that's what gradually happens to Hellenizers and pagans such as yourselves.

You introduce ideas such as human sacrifice and the view that one being can die to remove another's sin, when in fact the Torah says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deuteronomy 24:16) And where in the Torah or any other part of the Tanach does it describe the method by which human sacrifice should take place? All sacrifices are clearly described, and they all take place in the Beit HaMikdash(Temple). Where is the description for a human sacrifice that dies of prolonged suffering, rather than quickly with limited suffering as God usually requires?

What say you?

(OOC: I will point out that only what you call the "OT" would be considered valid to them, and they wouldn't accept a translation that removed itself from the meaning of the Hebrew. If you feel that my presence in this thread will become a problem, I will gladly leave you be. I have decided not to balk at the historical innaccuracies of this gathering and go with it instead.)

Defense: The words you have spoken are true. THou Shall have no other Gods before me and the one whom you crucified preached the same. It is worthy of death to make man a God yet it is quite the same if not worse to make God just a mere man. For you yourselves know that our Father was justified by faith and not by observing the law. You have corrupted the hearts of men in making them try to attain something unattainable. Have you yourselves kept the whole law? How will you be justified before the Holy one? For we all know that sin cannot enter his presence! God is good and must punish for all wrong doing. Yes we will all be put to death for our sin...yet there is one whom we can find justification in through faith...like our father Abraham.

[streetbob2006]

wow....I am a little behind on this one...I did not realize there was 8 pages of comments!!! my bad

[dauer]

streetbob,

If you review what's been said before, I will gladly respond to your arguments, but only if you're adding instead of repeating, and only if you take into account the mindset of who you're standing before and that it is, despite being imo based around an extremely unlikely if not impossible historical event and a fictitious polemic against an historical community (by this I mean polemic against the pharisees, not the christians.)

If you become the accuser, this is a court of law and that will not go well for you. If you petition the court on your behalf by denying the court's a priori assumptions, that will not go well for you. And in either of those cases it's unlikely I will respond to your argument. Your most glaring disregard for an a priori assumption is for this one:

"1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah. "

Pirkei Avot

And it continues along the line which Judaism has traditionally seen the Mosaic tradition (the written and oral Torahs) to have been passed. Even from an historical perspective it would be a bit inaccurate to deny the legal nature of much of the Torah. From a textual perspective alone it would mean ignoring quite a bit of the text. From a Christian perspective I've never really heard that argument before either, only that the law had a much different purpose.

You also seem ignorant of much other than polemic against the pharisees instead of their actual worldview, like the nature of aveirah and teshuvah, the tempering of G!d's attribute of justice by His attribute of mercy and the role the sanhedrin played in this paradigm.

And beyond that, claiming that faith in a human being removes a person's obligations to G!d isn't going to go very far. There is a similar perspective presented in pirkei avot, but it is quite different:

"6. Rabbi Nechunya ben Hakanah said: Whoever takes upon himself the yoke of Torah, from him will be taken away the yoke of government and the yoke of worldly care; but whoever throws off the yoke of Torah, upon him will be laid the yoke of government and the yoke of worldly care."

The yoke of Torah of course here means accepting the mitzvot as understood by the written and oral Torahs, that is, accepting G!d-given law. The government it refers to is not the one viewed as Divinely sanctioned but instead the foreign one viewed as man-made. As you can see, this also places the law in a spiritual light, as a path that brings one close to G!d, and not as a burden. If you do not take this into account, it will not go well for you. Imagine telling a person who knows for himself that by sticking to a strict monastic practice that he gets much fruit in the form of spiritual development and closeness to G!d that his practice is a burden which accomplishes little if not nothing for him.

But, if you are coming before the court not as a Jew, but as a present-day Christian then there is no problem and you are not on trial. Only if you are coming before the court as a Jew who has been drawn to what would become Christianity (of course some suspension of belief is necessary since you're projecting your personal beliefs backward onto a community that still seemed to be lacking a cohesive identity or dogma, just as I am only projecting my sense of what is most likely the pharisees actually believed) is there any issue. If you're a gentile then there's no trial.

[dauer]

If you do decide to respond, please familiarize yourself with the historical pharisees first. The article on wikipedia appears to have been completely redone and is a decent introduction to the material:

Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If this appears at the top of a new page, I said something else on the bottom of the previous one.

[17th Angel]

Few quick questions on the bible...

1. Who is Joesph's father? Mat 1:16 / Luke 3:23
2. Jah is good to everyone? Pslam 145:9/ Jer 13:14
3. Who is Abijah's mother?? 2 chron 9:20 / 2 chron 13: 2
4. Jesus last words? mat 27:46-50 / luke 23:46 / john 19:30

If you want more just ask...

[BlaznFattyz]

i would like to bring evidence to the court.
when god does something there are witnesses.
by the same reasoning that you believe the torah passed thru hands of certain people to you now, the same reason you believe the words of prophets.
the big difference is while many of you believe these words, as well as myself you did not see them first hand.
however, we being jews, have seen the teacher who taught among you in the synagogues perform many miracles.
here is the blind man, here is the leper, here is the lame, here is the sick, here is a man that was dead. not only did many of us here witness these things, but the glory was given god so that we might believe in him that has come.
we all believe that john the baptist is a prophet here, or he would not be baptizing and teaching.
so when he also proclaimed that jesus was the lamb of god, the one that is from everlasting, the messiah, i believe him like the other words he has spoken.
i have also brought the sheepherders that were on the hills that day jesus was born and the angels of god rejoiced over him and told us to go and spread the good news that the son of god, the messiah has been born.
i have also brought as witnesses all those that saw the risen jesus, as well as him being taking up into glory forever with the father.
therefore, jesus being testified of men and angels, received up in glory and the right hand of god, he is the lord god that he says he is that is from everlasting, the saviour and redeemer so that we may find life in him. i have faith in that i know is true and the spirit of god as not only confirmed this but has changed me so that i do not fear death, but i know that have eternal life with god thru jesus christ.

[dauer]

blazn,

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

Devarim - Chapter 13 - Devarim

It is not the miracle that make someone a true prophet. Even pharoah's magicians could produce signs. There are those among the sages who have performed healings and other miracles, too. As we have heard there may be those among the gentiles who have done the same. But the miracle is proof of nothing. Once the teachings given to Moshe Rabeinu (Moses our Teacher) at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai) have been contradicted, that is the oral and written Torahs, by a prophet, that individual has revealed himself to be speaking falsely and to be a blasphemer of G!d. That dreamer of dreams is a test sent by Hashem of our love for Him and for His holy mitzvot. You have admitted openly in the presence of the members of this sanhedrin to practicing avodah zarah (strange/foreign worship/service) and following an elohim acharim (an other god, or also, any authority but G!d's as laid out in the written and oral Torah) in violation of the mitzvot. We will give you the option to take back your previous statement. If you choose to stand by your blaspheme we're left with no alternative but to mete out the full penalty for your crime. Such a penalty in olam hazeh (this world) will prevent excessive time in gehenna (like purgatory sorta) which would be much, much worse.

[BlaznFattyz]

It is not the miracle that make someone a true prophet. Even pharoah's magicians could produce signs. There are those among the sages who have performed healings and other miracles, too. As we have heard there may be those among the gentiles who have done the same. But the miracle is proof of nothing. Once the teachings given to Moshe Rabeinu (Moses our Teacher) at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai) have been contradicted, that is the oral and written Torahs, by a prophet, that individual has revealed himself to be speaking falsely and to be a blasphemer of G!d. That dreamer of dreams is a test sent by Hashem of our love for Him and for His holy mitzvot. You have admitted openly in the presence of the members of this sanhedrin to practicing avodah zarah (strange/foreign worship/service) and following an elohim acharim (an other god, or also, any authority but G!d's as laid out in the written and oral Torah) in violation of the mitzvot. We will give you the option to take back your previous statement. If you choose to stand by your blaspheme we're left with no alternative but to mete out the full penalty for your crime. Such a penalty in olam hazeh (this world) will prevent excessive time in gehenna (like purgatory sorta) which would be much, much worse.

he is not just a prophet but the express image of god, as jesus said he who has seen him have seen the father that sent him, and it has been witnessed that god spoke to some of us in a cloud and proclaimed his son, "a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!". so it is not another god, but god come in the flesh--the messiah whom john the baptist also proclaimed in the wilderness. and there the heavens opened up and a voice from heaven said, "this is my son with whom i am well pleased", and the holy spirit descended upon him like a dove. so it is that all those there witnessed this testimony of god that jesus is the lamb of god. i believe because god the father, the holy spirit of god, the son of god, angels of god, and the prophets who have announced his coming have all proclaimed him. And he who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. therefore, i believe with all my heart that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God, not another god or another religion, but God himself come into the world to die for our sins, so we might have everlasting life through him who has overcome death for us for he is life, and this the father in heaven has revealed this to me and i stand by what i have said.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Few quick questions on the bible...

1. Who is Joesph's father? Mat 1:16 / Luke 3:23
2. Jah is good to everyone? Pslam 145:9/ Jer 13:14
3. Who is Abijah's mother?? 2 chron 9:20 / 2 chron 13: 2
4. Jesus last words? mat 27:46-50 / luke 23:46 / john 19:30

If you want more just ask...

No explanations eh? What a, suprise.....

[dauer]

blazn,

You continue to speak heresy and profess belief in an elohim acharim. Your statements contradict the teachings received by Moshe Rabbeinu and the neviim. Despite our efforts to persuade you to recant and do teshuvah, turning back toward our merciful G!d you are bound to in a unique covenant, you only stand by your blaspheme against Him, clearly influenced by some of the beliefs of our oppressors like those who worship Mithras and Dionysus. We know that there is no man that can claim to be the only son of G!d. The Torah teaches that all of Israel is the son of G!d and speaks of many great men, like David HaMelech, as His son as well. This is only to speak of their relationship with G!d being like that of a child to his Father. We all have that relationship to G!d. No individual can claim monopoly to it. As you well know "ben" does not always literally mean son.

We have no choice but to condemn you to death. It will take place ten years from today. During those ten years you'll live in an isolated cell and will have the chance, if you realize you've failed a test sent by G!d of your love and loyalty to Him, to come before this court again and admit your error. If you admit you delusion, then the penalty will be more bearable. If you do not, you face death by hanging.

*blazn is dragged from the courtroom before he has a chance to respond*

[lunamoth]

*bumpity bump*

[mee]

yes ,for christians the bible should be the aurthority ,and i have got mine ready and waiting