Christians you are on Trial Bring your Bible and Defend your self

Basstian · 01-31-2005, 09:48 PM

Year: 33 ad
Setting : During a prayer meeting with your brethren and you hear a knock on the door. Supposing it is another of your brethren and a follower of Jesus you rush to the door and open it.
Standing outside are 20 armed soldiers and other men dressed in what your realize are the adornments of the High priests men.
They ask who among you confess the Name of Jesus?
*Readers of this thread who do not will not be on this trial but can if they choose bring forth acusations against the Christians in question.*

After Claiming that you believe in Jesus and that he is the Son of God you are bound and lead away to a large meeting room.
Looking around you see 40 to 50 men Dressed in the Traditional robes of the sadducees and Pharisees among them you See the High priest Annas and his Guards Caiaphas a man named John and Alexander are also there. And Saul of Tarsus.

In a loud voice Annas stands and says " YOU HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF BLASPHEMY AND OF SINS AGAINST GOD WORTHY OF DEATH ACCORDING TO THE LAW. CONSIDER YOUR WORDS CAREFULLY YOUR LIVES HANG IN THE BALANCE YOU WILL EACH BE GIVEN AN OPPURTUNITY TO DEFEND YOUR FAITH IF GOD BE WITH YOU YOU WILL SURVIVE THIS TRIAL IF NOT YOU WILL BE STONED BY THE ENDING OF THE DAY. "

Prosecution: will be using the Bible from Genesis 1 to John 21 of the new testament but only versus of the new testement in which religious leaders are involved.
Defence will be allowed all of the Bible and Doctrines of todays Christian Church
__________________________________________________ _______________
My Purpose in conducting this trial is to see How the Church would stand today If brought on trial like our founders were would our Faith and our doctrine stand. Would we like the discciples and like Paul be found with No fault. The fact is they will still want to Kill us buy the end of this Trial but will if we are true Have no valid reason and will desire this Unjustly
__________________________________________________ ______________
Please When Posting Use in Bold which Side you are representing
PROSECUTION: etc etc etc etc

DEFENCE: etc etc etc

Remember many of our Founders and the Apostles endured this
My question is Can we?
Keep it in Charactor: please enjoy it: I believe it will be a very educational post
I leave you now to make the First Accusation or Defensive statement

Bandit · 01-31-2005, 10:22 PM

PROSECUTION:This Jesus you boast of and whom you claim is risen from the dead. Show us your proof!!! Unless we cut your heads off and your childrens heads first.

Prove to us this Jesus you worship is King of Kings and Lord of Lords! You cannot prove such idiot faith, neither will you withstand the pain and affliction that the soldiers will set upon your bodies.
You shall bow to the Government of Rome and Caesar your god! and to it's high men and officials.

Your Jesus has been stolen from the tomb and you shall never see him again, neither your false Kingdom.

Hail to Caesar!

SPEAK in your own defense and for your mystical belief.

is that what you mean Basstian?

Basstian · 01-31-2005, 10:40 PM

Deffence:
I see not How Rome being a nation of Gentiles would have any bearing on a trial that is clearly Based on the Promise Give our Father Abraham. The Roman Power you sent Jesus to saw no Fault in Him . I am sure they would Find no Fault in the Group you have bound here.
A Question now to you was the Messiah to be called according to the prophets
6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Does it go against your Law to Hope such a Messiah would exist as Gods promise

I, Brian · 01-31-2005, 10:46 PM

<quiet voice>Psst! 33 AD, rather than 3 AD?</quite voice>

Sounds like an interesting thread.

EDIT: Corrected.

Basstian · 01-31-2005, 10:48 PM

Moderators Note Staying in Charactor will be Fun as long as we are not insulting.
Dont make me hold you in Contempt

biggest mean face I could come up with lol

I will allow any aspect of Christianity to be used or used against.
It would seem either the Faith will stand of fall no matter the accusation
Also just becuase the trial setting is 3AD doesnt mean that doctrines from this Curent era and of the past cannot be brought into play.

Basstian · 01-31-2005, 10:51 PM

MISTRIAL I HAD THE WRONG DATE START OVER thanks brian *blush*

dauer · 01-31-2005, 10:52 PM

Prosecution

Listen! You heretics have forgotten the words of Torah:

Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!" [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst."

You have followed your dreamer of dreams into worship of himself, a man-god, a god whom your ancestors did not know. He gave you signs of wonder and you failed the test. You succombed and turned from God. Do you not know as it says in Torah:

Numbers 23:19 G-d [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.

Hashem did in fact proclaim, "Exodus 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy G-d, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no elohim acherim before me." But you have made this man into an elohim, as the word is also used for a person of authority, and placed him before God.

I recognize similarities between your beliefs, and those of the Mithraists. But I suppose that's what gradually happens to Hellenizers and pagans such as yourselves.

You introduce ideas such as human sacrifice and the view that one being can die to remove another's sin, when in fact the Torah says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deuteronomy 24:16) And where in the Torah or any other part of the Tanach does it describe the method by which human sacrifice should take place? All sacrifices are clearly described, and they all take place in the Beit HaMikdash(Temple). Where is the description for a human sacrifice that dies of prolonged suffering, rather than quickly with limited suffering as God usually requires?

What say you?

(OOC: I will point out that only what you call the "OT" would be considered valid to them, and they wouldn't accept a translation that removed itself from the meaning of the Hebrew. If you feel that my presence in this thread will become a problem, I will gladly leave you be. I have decided not to balk at the historical innaccuracies of this gathering and go with it instead.)

Basstian · 01-31-2005, 11:35 PM

welcome stay you are needed in this trialDeffence the pharisees do they not from careful study of the law and the prophets believe in the resurection of the dead. Yet because we have seen and witnessed such we stand accused as heretics
Of what scripture Did moses warn of listening to a Man whos Goal is to draw people into a closer relationship with God thru Honoring the Law and the prophets Jesus said that Not one jot or Title will pass from the Law till all is fufilled.
Was not our Father Abraham asked to sacrifice his first Born as a sign of his dedication?
Your rejection could it not be the fulfilment of the prophet
1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Why would Him being a sacrifice for our sins be counted as strange when God said
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

Basstian · 01-31-2005, 11:51 PM

Deffence I also object to the reading of Laws you wish to covict us of with out reading of the transgressions or the words spoken. You presented laws but no examples of how anyof us had broken them. We had come to the temple to worship in accordance to the law to present ourselve as Jewish men Before God and now stand before you. You have presented no transcript of words that were said In violation of the LAW

dauer · 02-01-2005, 12:21 AM

(Bass, in the future could you please include citations for verses you quote? Thank you.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basstian

welcome stay you are needed in this trialDeffence the pharisees do they not from careful study of the law and the prophets believe in the resurection of the dead. Yet because we have seen and witnessed such we stand accused as heretics

No, you are accused as heretics for avodah zerah (literally means strange worship and has a somewhat looser definition than the the English word Idolatry) and blaspheme. (assuming that your position is one of a Trinity. What is your position?) You blatantly worship an elohim acherim. Had you only claimed to see a miracle, then there would be no trial. You know as well as I do that when HaMoshiach comes God will bring world peace and all of the people will be gathered back to Israel. The Beit HaMikdash will be rebuilt, etc.

Quote:

Of what scripture Did moses warn of listening to a Man whos Goal is to draw people into a closer relationship with God thru Honoring the Law and the prophets

This is not the problem. Hillel was a wise man. I don't worship him. That would be avodah zerah. And Jesus also said that the only way to find God was through him. How is this wise, if every individual has a direct connection to God? By making himself an intermediary he becomes an elohim acherim. I cannot approve.

Quote:

Jesus said that Not one jot or Title will pass from the Law till all is fufilled.

How do you fulfill an eternal covenant? There will be no end. The Torah represents God's will for man on earth.

Quote:

Was not our Father Abraham asked to sacrifice his first Born as a sign of his dedication?

It was also a warning for those people who were still sacrificing their children. Because they could look to Torah and see a familiar story of God asking for a child, but no! It was just a test. God does not want this. No child shall die for the sins of the father, or vice versa. We die for our sins alone.

Quote:

Your rejection could it not be the fulfilment of the prophet
1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Why would Him being a sacrifice for our sins be counted as strange when God said
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors[/quote]

Where do you get the idea this is about HaMoshiach? I see no place where HaMoshiach is mentioned here. I'm not sure why you started quoting where you did. What leads you to assume the verse begins there? I, as a Jew living in this time period, know of no such passage breaks. As this does not claim to be about HaMoshiach, we cannot make that assumption. On the other hand, there is something else suggested by the text:

Isaiah 41:8-9: But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob who I have chosen, descendant of Abraham, my friend; You whom I have called from its remotest parts, and said to you, you are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you.

Isaiah 42:1: Behold my servant, whom I shall uphold; My chosen one, who My soul desired; I have placed My spirit upon him so he can bring forth justice to the nations.

Isaiah 43:10: You are my witnesses, declares Hashem, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:1-2: But now listen, O Jacob my servant, and Israel whom I have chosen: Thus says Hashem, who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you, “Do not fear O Jacob, my servant, Jesharun who I have chosen.”

Isaiah 44:21: Remember these things O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant, I have formed you, you are My servant O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.

Isaiah 45:4: For the sake of Jacob my servant, and Israel, my chosen one, I have even called you by your name.

Isaiah 48:20: Go forth out of Babylon, flee from the Kasdim with a voice of singing declare, tell this, say it even to the ends of the earth; say “Hashem has redeemed His servant Jacob.”

Isaiah 49:3: And said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

We are the suffering servant. Look around you. Jesus was one Jew who suffered and died, like so many others. And it doesn't stop. The Romans peeled off my brother's skin, layer by layer, until he collapsed and died, just because he studied Torah! You have abandoned your brethren and annointed another golden calf. You've become like the Romans.

Dauer

Basstian · 02-01-2005, 01:54 AM

*** Observation *** thus far it is not looking so good for the defendants I need help NOT that I am giving up Dauer has just blasted me with more scripture than I can can build a rebutal for on my own Please Christains let your voices be heard.

dauer · 02-01-2005, 02:39 AM

OOC: Perhaps it would be helpful to understand the traditional role of the moshiach in Judaism, as it differs greatly from that of messiah in Christianity. If a trial such as this did ever happen in any way shape or form, the early Christians would have been privy to such information.

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Basstian · 02-01-2005, 04:51 AM

deffence

Dauer I am really confused which inspires me to learn
I read the traditions that Jesus held dear in his religion He never once comannded people to become anything other than what you might call evolved Jews but I see all his disiplices holding fast to the faith of there fathers. The Church of Rome made a choice basiccly that everything Jewish ie the sabbath Passover the feasts and offerings and the study of Moses and the Law were to be removed from there church they replaced them with Icon and Idols from to cults of that time Created Gods and stone statues that were worshipped of the saints the Changed the day of worship under pressure of pagens the had infiltrated the administration of the Church. Exchanging passover for easter calling what had been a holy day for the fertility God a celebration of the reserection established Christams in Honor of "the Birth of Christ when they New it was to appease those who worshiped Tamauzz (who is you see is in your past as well warnings in the prophets about worshiping him0 the sunrise services the Hot Cross Bunns Lent (weeping for tamuzz) Now our Chrurch is Blindly folowing all these things and Knowbody seems to care I want to be a Jew I believe in Christ but all this other is Far from what I have learned in the Law and the prophets and I believe that is bound to be the downfall of my religion.
I am stuck I Know the truth I cant say it or I am deemed a heritic also I am not of the age to stand and correct elders. Some believe like I do I know of a couple of Chruches . I believe the Roman Church has been the cause of your peoples sorrows in many ways and is the cause of our deception. Not Jesus every thing Jesus Asked me to Do is in Line with the Laws as I know them given to Moses
I feel alone sometimes as elijah when he was fed buy ravens and I wait on the Lord holding my faith
The other Christians Here wil have to speak on their own behalf
I still Profess Jesus the Son of God and Believe he is the Fufilment of the prophecy.

Bandit · 02-01-2005, 05:58 AM

John 18

defense: If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?

hey Bass- <ssshhh psspsss>- we can always reply with "Thou Sayest"

Bandit · 02-01-2005, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Now our Chrurch is Blindly folowing all these things and Knowbody seems to care I want to be a Jew I believe in Christ but all this other is Far from what I have learned in the Law and the prophets and I believe that is bound to be the downfall of my religion.
I am stuck I Know the truth I cant say it or I am deemed a heritic also I am not of the age to stand and correct elders. Some believe like I do I know of a couple of Chruches . I believe the Roman Church has been the cause of your peoples sorrows in many ways and is the cause of our deception. Not Jesus every thing Jesus Asked me to Do is in Line with the Laws as I know them given to Moses
I feel alone sometimes as elijah when he was fed buy ravens and I wait on the Lord holding my faith

defense:

I want to be a Jew also! A Jew who will not reject Jesus. Not a Christian any more, but an engrafted gentile into the Jew. Rome caused many problems for us, Rome has fallen... but I will still stand in the shoes Jesus stood in, though I be crucified or stoned. That is why we are being tested in these last 100 years. That is why we have access to the complete bible in all languages.

It is almost like 1000 years of deception have passed and here we are in the latter rain with the truth in abundance at our fingertips.

Dont expect too many to see it that way Basstian