Church: Men Not Allowed!

[BlaznFattyz]

Does the church discriminate against men?

For years, the familiar and partly justified criticism of the lack of women in church leadership positions has dominated attention. Now comes the opposite slant: men are not welcome in church any longer.
In an article written for Rick Warren's Ministry Toolbox, David Murrow, author of Why Men Hate Going To Church, states:

Many common worship practices are subtly tilted toward the feminine heart. Without even realizing it, we've created the perfect environment for sensitive women and soft-hearted men to meet with Jesus. But this worship climate tends to alienate masculine men...Cont'd

[path_of_one]

The article resonates with my experience. And personally, as a "doer" more than a "listener/talker," I'd appreciate a more "doing" church too.

My husband doesn't like to go to church because he finds lectures and being indoors boring. It doesn't matter what the topic is, it matters what the venue is.

I don't know if that is why men in general do not like church. But I have heard from quite a few men that what they don't like is: 1) being inside and sitting for a long time, 2) getting lectured at by someone, and 3) not having discussion. My husband has enjoyed Bible studies because they're more interactive.

If there were a church that was about discussing the Bible rather than lecturing on it and met as a hiking group rather than in a building, he'd probably want to go.

Just my observations...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

If there were a church that was about discussing the Bible rather than lecturing on it ... he'd probably want to go.

I can relate...that's why I'm here and not in some stuffy old building having some old f...art *tell* me what to think.

[Joedjr]

Hi,
I also agree to what being discussed here. I don't really care to be told what to do at church, whether its to tell my neighbor how good he is or what words to use as prayer. My leaning is that the gospel message is one of movement not pew warming. I like to do habitat for humanity work now and again, it's a win win that just seems right.
Joe

[wil]

I wonder if Quakers have more men? Or UU's? One has no leader/pontificator, the other is prone to discussions.

My dad quit going because he couldn't stand up and ask questions during service. It resonates with me. But that isn't knew, the church didn't change.

I think still the majority of churches are lead by males, with women in most of the supportive roles, and women in most of the pews, and I'd like to see statistics that that has changed much over the past 30 years.

[Tao_Equus]

Maybe they could hand out paintball guns with the bibles at the door. If you are bored with the direction the preacher is taking you could splatter him, then splatter the person you would rather continue the sermon. Having the lectern and pews for cover they could avoid your shots and so dismiss your grounds for change. Limiting the ammunition would limit the 'disruption' any single individual may feel inclined to cause. Just an idea.

Tao

[Virtual_Cliff]

I agree. I think it was Richard Rohr of the Centre For Action and Contemplation (IIRC) who was saying the same thing. Apparently he saw some places in Italy where the church is full of women and the men stand outside in the square.

Don't know what to do about it though. Must admit I'm getting a bit teed off with the mumsy feel where I go now. Sometimes it feels more like a pre-school playgroup. I'll have a think...

[greymare]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Maybe they could hand out paintball guns with the bibles at the door. If you are bored with the direction the preacher is taking you could splatter him, then splatter the person you would rather continue the sermon. Having the lectern and pews for cover they could avoid your shots and so dismiss your grounds for change. Limiting the ammunition would limit the 'disruption' any single individual may feel inclined to cause. Just an idea.

Tao

hey, i would attend that one.lol

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by greymare

hey, i would attend that one.lol

Me too. Sounds fun! I think God likes fun and laughter, so I don't find paintballing irreverent in the least.

[Still thinking]

Hmm, interesting thought. I think in any group worship situation, there should be a balance of the emotional and the intellectual, (or as some have implied, the masculine and the feminine), but I would argue that emotional songs and a touchy-feely atmosphere are hardly the reason men are not going to church. I think that in society at large, men are just not stepping up. A quick glance at the number of unmarried mothers can confirm this. Sadly, men in our society are, themselves, becoming less masculine (IMO) and more irresponsible.
My father, a middle-aged white Republican, would blame this trend on the women's movement, blaming them for emasculating men in the name of political correctness. While I couldn't disagree with him more, I do agree that men are less and less the leaders (in church, politics, society) and women are taking on those roles. I have no problem with women as leaders, but I do think a healthy balance is required. Women shouted out that we wanted to be treated equally, and men heard that it was time for us to take over. Women yearned for leadership roles, and men saw a chance to give up responsibilty. Once again, the miscommunication between the genders is astonishing.
So to answer Blazn, I offer a challenge: if you don't like how church is operated, do something about it! If you and your fellow men feel it is too emotional and feminie, then step up and take a leadership role to change it. But don't stop going to church and then whine about it. Be a leader, and show us how men and women can co-exist in worship as well as in society.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Still thinking

If you and your fellow men feel it is too emotional and feminie, then step up and take a leadership role to change it. But don't stop going to church and then whine about it. Be a leader, and show us how men and women can co-exist in worship as well as in society.

Ah, but I do step up...I call it "voting with my feet." And I don't whine about it, I simply avoid it. Since I was a kid I loved sunday school and hated the blessed sermons. The last sermon I recall, the preacher read / quoted exactly 1 and 1/2 verses, out of context, and spent the rest of the two hours talking about the corporate structure of McDonald's restaurants. I got absolutely *nothing* of spiritual value out of that experience. I would much rather spend my quality time for the Father reading scripture for myself and allowing the spirit to interpret, or fellowshipping here with reasonably likeminded seekers of spirit and truth.

BTW, I agree with your dad. Nothing new either, I've said the same for years, based on personal observation.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

My husband doesn't like to go to church because he finds lectures and being indoors boring. It doesn't matter what the topic is, it matters what the venue is.

I don't know if that is why men in general do not like church. But I have heard from quite a few men that what they don't like is: 1) being inside and sitting for a long time, 2) getting lectured at by someone, and 3) not having discussion. My husband has enjoyed Bible studies because they're more interactive.

If there were a church that was about discussing the Bible rather than lecturing on it and met as a hiking group rather than in a building, he'd probably want to go.

Originally Posted by Still thinking

Hmm, interesting thought. I think in any group worship situation, there should be a balance of the emotional and the intellectual, (or as some have implied, the masculine and the feminine), but I would argue that emotional songs and a touchy-feely atmosphere are hardly the reason men are not going to church. I think that in society at large, men are just not stepping up. A quick glance at the number of unmarried mothers can confirm this. Sadly, men in our society are, themselves, becoming less masculine (IMO) and more irresponsible.
I have no problem with women as leaders, but I do think a healthy balance is required. Women shouted out that we wanted to be treated equally, and men heard that it was time for us to take over. Women yearned for leadership roles, and men saw a chance to give up responsibilty. Once again, the miscommunication between the genders is astonishing.
So to answer Blazn, I offer a challenge: if you don't like how church is operated, do something about it! If you and your fellow men feel it is too emotional and feminie, then step up and take a leadership role to change it.

This is where I think, once again, the brain science comes into it.

Women have more white matter in their brain, which means that there are more connections not just locally, but globally. Men have more grey matter, less global connections, but more local ones.

Because women have more global connections in their brain, they are able to connect more readily to people, situations and experiences. They can share roles and agendas with other people and multi-task. They have more social connections, contacts, acquaintances and friends. They are better at absorbing information and experiences. This is perhaps why they are less reluctant to sit for one or two hours listening to a boring lecture because they are not really interested in the lecture, but the person who is speaking, the atmosphere around them, and the people in the building.

Women are more flexible in their thinking because of the connections in their brain. They can find alternatives that still work if they see something they don't like or don't want to do, but still stay within the same "sphere of thinking."

But this is harder for a man to do. Men don't "connect" as readily to people and situations. Men are more focused. A man is like a driver or pilot with a slow reaction. It takes a while for him to respond. Men can't respond quickly to big changes, particularly social, personal and emotional ones.

So why don't men like listening to boring lectures? Well, I think it's because our minds are less flexible. We don't connect with the person speaking, or the people in the congregation. We are either focused on something else, or haven't been trained or conditioned for that kind of environment. Men like doing what they have been trained and conditioned to do. It requires less thinking, particularly sentimental, emotional and personal thinking. Men are good at technical thinking, which requires less flexibility, but not good at being flexible in how they use their minds. That is important in sentimental, emotional and personal matters, and thus religion.

If something is unfamiliar and foreign and men find it hard to relate to it, they will find something else to do and somewhere else to go. They will go to places that are familiar, do things they know how to do or solve problems for which they know they can find a solution. This is perhaps how I might explain why men (typically?) in this generation "avoid responsibility."

I think masculinity and femininity have been misunderstood in this regard. Masculinity isn't about being strong and femininity isn't about needing help or a protector. Women can be strong and men can be vulnerable. Masculinity isn't about getting things done and femininity isn't about having someone else do things for you. Masculinity and femininity have to do with the structure of your brain and how information flows inside it and how you make decisions.

Masculinity and femininity should be seen from the perspective of brain science, not cultural expectations (ie. the man is strong and gets things done, the women is emotional). Women are not more emotional than men and men are not more intellectual than women. It's not about strength, weakness, emotions or intellect. It's about neuronic connectivity.

It is, actually, quite masculine, rather than unmasculine, for me to avoid responsibility. It's because of the way my brain is structured. I naturally prefer avoiding the unfamiliar rather than re-aligning my thinking. The man sees, straight in front of him, a close door that must be opened with considerable effort. He chooses to go somewhere else where there is an open door. The woman doesn't see a closed door. For the woman, it's an open door. She is able to reason the closed door out of existence and go through with little effort. (It's really a hologram, a hallucination.) The close door does exist from one perspective, but not in others. The man sees things from a limited perspective, while the woman sees an incomplete, fadedly closed door that she can walk through as if it was just a ghost. The man needs time to reason himself out of the perspective where he saw a closed door. The woman did that almost immediately, and quite naturally.

Men in past generations lived in patriarchal environments that suited their masculine, grey-matter dominated brains. Society was more monolithic and conformist. Life was simpler. You didn't need that many connections. People were less mobile. People travelled less and saw more of each other. Less commitments. Fewer agendas. Change was slow.

Today's societies are more diverse. There are a lot more things happening. More opportunities, but you have to compete. More connections, more commitments, more agendas. Change is rapid. Women, who have white-matter dominated brains can, more naturally, handle this vast, rapidly-changing world of many connections, commitments and agendas. A man has to constantly retrain himself to keep up if he wants to be efficient. Men avoid the unfamiliar and look for something that is compatible with their prior training and conditioning.

If men avoid responsibility in the present generation I think there's a good reason for it. We can't cope with so many responsibilities and interests. So many connections, commitments and agendas. We need time to re-align our thinking, retrain ourselves, because with grey-matter dominated brains that see things from a limited perspective, that is how we get things done. A lot of the time we just avoid doing it because we don't know any better. It's easy for a woman to re-align her thinking because she can, more naturally, connect with people and situations. Her perspective is also broader.

Men are a bit like programmed robots that have the (human) ability to re-program themselves, but take a while......

I think I can understand why there was a lot more domestic violence and wife-beating in prior generations......men couldn't reason themselves out of it easily. Modern society has provided alternatives, but deep inside, we are still the same dull, inflexible-minded individuals you used to, and still have to live with. We don't beat you up as much, but some things still haven't changed. Our brains are the same as before. Modern society, technology and culture hasn't improved male intelligence.

Yeah.....it's not your fault. We're just stupid. Please don't take this personally. It's not you. It's just me. Please don't judge or condemn.

But I am grateful that God designed women to fall in love with beings with inflexible minds in order to tame and pacify us.

But....anyway.....I'm not trying to find a cop-out here. I just think that if we understood the differences between how men and women thought, particularly the way their brains are structured, we might be able to use this awareness more effectively for self-improvement.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

And I don't whine about it, I simply avoid it. Since I was a kid I loved sunday school and hated the blessed sermons. The last sermon I recall, the preacher read / quoted exactly 1 and 1/2 verses, out of context, and spent the rest of the two hours talking about the corporate structure of McDonald's restaurants. I got absolutely *nothing* of spiritual value out of that experience.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I would much rather spend my quality time for the Father reading scripture for myself and allowing the spirit to interpret, or fellowshipping here with reasonably likeminded seekers of spirit and truth.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Nothing new either, I've said the same for years, based on personal observation.

Juantoo confirms a lot of what I said about masculine inflexible thinking. We are both telling you what our experience tells us.

I have listened to the way women talk about things, the way men talk about things, and the way that I think. I noticed in myself from many of my personal relationships and interactions this inflexibility in my thoughts and actions. It will take a while for me to retrain myself.

Juantoo couldn't connect with what the pastor said out of context. So he looked for something else. He couldn't see how it could possibly have had sentimental and emotional value for the church's community. Women see that. We take a while to figure that out. We said......this guy is talking rubbish. The women said.......yeah I can see where he comes from.

We avoid the unfamiliar, foreign and anything incompatible with our prior training and conditioning. Sure we can re-align our thinking, but that requires some effort......

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Juantoo ... couldn't see how it could possibly have had sentimental and emotional value for the church's community.

Not quite. But if it helps tell your story, go with it.

If something is unfamiliar and foreign and men find it hard to relate to it, they will find something else to do and somewhere else to go. They will go to places that are familiar, do things they know how to do or solve problems for which they know they can find a solution. This is perhaps how I might explain why men (typically?) in this generation "avoid responsibility."

This subject is far from unfamiliar or foreign to me, it is familiar enough as a no-win situation. I can't even play because the rules are vague and unclear, and the goalposts keep moving. In short, I do find it hard to relate to not because it is unfamiliar, but because I'm tired of fighting an unwinnable battle. I don't see how that is avoiding responsibility...responsibility by its nature implies "fixing what is broken." But some people don't want this "problem" fixed. So, I leave them to their own devices and set off to comfort myself with my own devices. To each their own. My own is not in a pew.

I see the potential for getting myself into a deep pile of doo-doo, one I've been in before. So I think it is time for me to exit, stage right... --->

<waves> toodles!

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Not quite. But if it helps tell your story, go with it.

I see the potential for getting myself into a deep pile of doo-doo, one I've been in before. So I think it is time for me to exit, stage right... --->

I like theories.....they simplify things.

But most importantly, this is not a definition of male/female behaviour/thinking, just a description.

The idea(s) are influenced by many sources, books and articles on the Internet about romance and psychology, everyday conversations, how people talk, what women say about themselves and what they say about us, etc. I can't define masculine and feminine phenomena, but I can describe and perceive it. What I posted was what I thought of it.

You've explored this stuff before have you?

Just a picture and illustration.....an artist's depiction.