Clean & Unclean Meats

[China Cat Sunflower]

Oh, I think a veggie diet is better, no doubt about it. As to SDA's...well, I'm an ex-SDA, so I think I can speak to that. I grew up eating veggie-meat. We used to get this gluten based fake meat in a giant frozen roll. Then later we found out that stuff had so much sodium that it was worse than eating meat. And it was loaded with MSG. The Boca burgers and other fakey meat products are more healthy these days, but they sure don't taste as good as those salty MSG veggie dogs of my youth that hit your stomach like a gluten rock. If I ever want to take a trip down memory lane, though, all I have to do is eat a a handfull of Baco-bits right out of the jar. Mmmm, you can taste it for days.

Chris

[greymare]

oh my god, i cant believe such a lot of (dare I say it ) HOG WASH. you cannot convince me that your or whoevers god forbids us as hu;mans to eat meat. If you want to be a vegan etc, well good for you, but for me as an omnivour i'll eat most meat and lots of veges. of course we all have our acquired tastes but to say and quote texts from bibles etc that HAVE been manipulated by man(in general) to back up your culinary desires is totally ridiculous. I was hoping to get a general idea on why pig is so undesired to some beliefs. but this concept that the pig is what,(evil, unclean). oooohhhhh. scary. like any animal bred for the domestic meat market, it is as clean as the processess that the carcass goes through. not some heebie jeebie rubbish. A little bit of everything in moderation, i think is the key. Im going to make myself and my equally evil offspring some bacon and egg burgers......lol love the grey

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by greymare

oh my god, i cant believe such a lot of (dare I say it ) HOG WASH. you cannot convince me that your or whoevers god forbids us as hu;mans to eat meat. If you want to be a vegan etc, well good for you, but for me as an omnivour i'll eat most meat and lots of veges. of course we all have our acquired tastes but to say and quote texts from bibles etc that HAVE been manipulated by man(in general) to back up your culinary desires is totally ridiculous. I was hoping to get a general idea on why pig is so undesired to some beliefs. but this concept that the pig is what,(evil, unclean). oooohhhhh. scary. like any animal bred for the domestic meat market, it is as clean as the processess that the carcass goes through. not some heebie jeebie rubbish. A little bit of everything in moderation, i think is the key. Im going to make myself and my equally evil offspring some bacon and egg burgers......lol love the grey

Why is it hog wash? lol.... If there is a freak attack where some lion kills someone's kid or whatever... What you're crying? Over that hog wash? Oh boo freaking hoo, it's just a lion eating a kid.... Just having a light snack, some lunchie munchies. Sheesh...... You know where I'm going with this.... ooooh yea, you know! Rooooo meo!

[bananabrain]

bruce,

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

You assume that the laws of Leviticus are part of a "primitive health drive". But I don't see a reference to that in Leviticus. Good health may have been a by-product, but that is not the reason for the laws.

i don't think you've actually understood a word i've said. i am an observant jew. i keep kosher. as far as i am concerned the laws in the Torah were given by G!D. that is my starting point.

the laws in the Torah are also of several sorts. according to most classifications, there is a difference between laws that have a rational basis (mishpatim) and those that serve a cultic purpose (huqqim). they are distinguished in the Text themselves, usually by separate mentions as "laws and statutes" - both of which, in english, mean the same thing. in biblical hebrew they do not. kashrut is, according to most interpretations, cultic, not rational, except insofar as it serves to bolster community cohesion, in that if you can't eat with someone it makes it harder to intermarry with them. my point is, however, that these are spiritual laws for which the *reasons (as you yourself realise) are not given*. that means that pseudo-scientific logic and post-hoc rationalisation are not the most appropriate tools for understanding them. kashrut operates on an entirely different level and, as i said, is *not* designed as a "healthy eating" regimen. anyone who's ever eaten kugel or would know that.

These days we need good reasons, then we think about it and decide whether we should go ahead and practice those laws or not.

that is not the viewpoint of traditionally-minded jews. as you are no doubt aware, not understanding the reasons is not a reason to ditch the law, but an opportunity to look deeper into them. the Torah says "na'aseh ve-nishm'a" - "we shall do and we shall hear/understand": in that order. not, "we shall look at the reasons and then we shall decide whether to do or not". that's a fundamental difference.

As I said we need to know the spiritual reasons of why these things were given out as laws in the first place. You are assuming it was just for mundane reasons.

like i said, that is the precise opposite of what i am saying. we are perfectly aware of the spiritual reasons, which are, as i said, to do with tumah and taharah, which are absolutely *not* to do with hygiene.

Oh yes there is[intrinsic tumah in a pig?]. The pig does not appear to exhibit an evil nature.

i have no idea what you mean by this. a pig is an animal. it cannot be "evil" if it has no concept of free-will, or choice, or good and evil. it is an animal and acts on instinct and conditioning.

They are intelligent, and quite compatible with human beings. Look at the back of your hand and see how much it looks like pigskin. Our friend the pig also is recognized in medical science, as having organs which are quite close to the human.

and xenotransplants from pigs are permitted in halakhah (jewish law) - we may not be permitted to eat a pig, but we can certainly save a human life using one. this is what JWs get wrong - transplants are not considered "eating" - besides, if i was on a desert island with only pork to eat, it would be halakhically required for me to do so.

Well yes the truth always rests on facts, doesn't it?

if you want to debate the nature of truth, this is not the right subject to do it on. you and i have different axiomatic standpoints - you appear to believe that Torah laws are designed to deliver some kind of scientific proof, whereas i am of the opinion that Torah laws are designed for the spiritual benefit of the jewish people and, where appropriate, the wider world. kashrut is a jewish thing, otherwise it'd be in the noahide laws. Torah is designed to be consistent with itself, not with science, despite many areas in which the two may or may not be in agreement - science and Torah have different (albeit not contradictory) standards of evidence and methodology.

You might accept those facts or not- that is your business.

it is certainly my business to distinguish between facts and anecdotal wishful thinking supported by questionable science.

One thing I do know is that many Christians, the Jews and the Muslims, all agree that pig eating is a disgusting practice.

well i don't agree with that. and i know a lot of other far more learned jews that don't agree with that. disgust is cultural - we may not eat it, but we are not commanded to be disgusted by it. either way this statement hardly qualifies as a "fact".

Why is it then that the pig has been held in horror by Man for generations?

again, this is more of your "man in the pub" "everybody knows" wisdom. it's not exactly a "fact".

Lower entities are attracted in such an indulgence as pig eating, a practice that negates aspiring humanhood.

what is "indulgent" about eating pigs as opposed to, say, cows? and what's it got to do with humanhood? this just sounds like a bunch of overblown windy rhetoric to me.

We already know of the attraction of demons to swine, as a description is given in the Gospels.

ah, the gospels, of course, also being a 100% factual basis for your scientific conclusions that pork is unhealthy.

As to diabetes, I would be looking at the rates in men of the Seventh Day Adventist church- half that of the general population.

well, as i've already said, observant jewish diabetes isn't half that of the general population, nor is hindu diabetes, so that just doesn't really stack up, does it?

Steiner states that the dietary laws forbidding pork consumption were given to the Jews because of their susceptibility to that disease.

and who the arse made him an authority on the reasons for kashrut? find me someone who knows about halakhah that says that and you've got a case, but i've never heard anything to suggest it.

Originally Posted by wil

It is said that it is more important what comes out of our mouth than what goes in it. I'd say that applies to our fingers as well.

there are halakhic arguments about what constitutes the act of eating, but as you say, it's not just about mouths. in fact, if you'll indulge me, uncle bananabrain's pet theory about tuma and taharah (unsupported by official sanction, naturally) is that your average human is a set of pipes, some physical, some spiritual, some both. thus it is very important what goes into your pipes and what comes out of them and what they get connected up to at any given time. seeing things like that it makes a lot of sense what your various bodily and spiritual interfaces and orifices are used for.

Originally Posted by greymare

but this concept that the pig is what,(evil, unclean). oooohhhhh. scary. like any animal bred for the domestic meat market, it is as clean as the processess that the carcass goes through. not some heebie jeebie rubbish.

precisely.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Faithfulservant]

Well I for one feel 100% better when Im eating whole foods rather than this over processed junk they poison us with. Try doing it for a month and monitor your blood sugar and you'll see and deduct what is actually poisoning our bodies and the bodies of our children.

How to do this? Stay out of the middle of the grocery store.. Shop strictly on the outside... produce...the dairy...the meats...and buy whole wheat.

[greymare]

my humble apologies 17th, i must be a bit slow down here but I didnt understand a single part of what you said/typed. maybe you need to speak when your mouth isnt so full. eh? love the grey. by the way, I totally understand people of any description not eating meat or anything else for that matter because of medical reasons ie allergies etc or just plain and simple choice of a lifestyle, I just cant understand someone hiding behind a religious belief in this matter. thats all.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by greymare

my humble apologies 17th, i must be a bit slow down here but I didnt understand a single part of what you said/typed. maybe you need to speak when your mouth isnt so full. eh? love the grey. by the way, I totally understand people of any description not eating meat or anything else for that matter because of medical reasons ie allergies etc or just plain and simple choice of a lifestyle, I just cant understand someone hiding behind a religious belief in this matter. thats all.

My mouth full? Yea, that tends to be an obstacle while typing. You mentioned -lifestyle- isn't that religion? In a more simple way, what I said was replying to you not seeing the problem with an animal eating another animal.... So I put it in perspective of a lion eating a human.... People tend to not see that as hog wash... And to some humans, eating that bucket of chicken parts that are doing the breast stroke in grease, is the same as a child's face being mashed and mingled to pulp in the jaw of a lion.... Anyway back to "lifestyle"

I don't wish to eat meat because I have choosen not to, that is my lifestyle. (That is ok with you yeah?)

I don't wish to eat meat because my faith say's it isn't right, so I have choosen not to, that is my religion..... (That's hiding?)

Are they both not acceptable answers? They are choices, not actions to "hide" In both answers the person chooses to respect life and not kill/eat it.. Just like they have -choosen- (There's that crazy word again) their own religion the one that is right for them...... What's the problem? Like, I have -choosen- to eat meat.... (have done so since I was a child...) But, I don't get my knickers in a twist over others choices... That is their choice, that's the beauty of free will.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by greymare

I just cant understand someone hiding behind a religious belief in this matter. thats all.

If you follow one of the traditions of Hinduism, then you can't exactly call it hiding:

"You must not use your God-given body for killing god's creatures, whether they are human, animal or whatever." - Yajur Veda 12.32

"In their next lives, such sinful persons will be eaten by the same creatures they have killed in this world." - Bhagavata Purana 11.5.14

I understand that St. Francis, although a vegetarian himself, never preached Vegetarianism because it was not clearly described in the Christian scriptures? It seems to be a matter of personal choice for followers of the majority of modern Abrahmic traditions.

Unless, of course, you take the commandment "thou shalt not kill" in the universal sense.


... Neemai

[bananabrain]

we have some sources (based on the "lion lying down with the lamb" in isaiah, i believe) that in the messianic age/World to Come, humans will no longer eat meat, as we will return to an 'edenic state. until then, of course, eating meat is an "'oneg" or pleasure which we are commanded to enjoy as appropriate, although people who are vegetarian for spiritual reasons will of course get some kind of religious brownie points i dare say.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

we have some sources (based on the "lion lying down with the lamb" in isaiah, i believe) that in the messianic age/World to Come, humans will no longer eat meat, as we will return to an 'edenic state. until then, of course, eating meat is an "'oneg" or pleasure which we are commanded to enjoy as appropriate, although people who are vegetarian for spiritual reasons will of course get some kind of religious brownie points i dare say.

b'shalom

bananabrain

If that's the case, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed people whose fondest meals come off the grill. We'll have to substitute with soy burgers. Yeech!

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

If that's the case, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed people whose fondest meals come off the grill. We'll have to substitute with soy burgers. Yeech!

marinate a few portebello's in some italian or garlic salad dressing and then toss them on the grill, you'll get a taste of heaven...

[Bruce Michael]

Peace Bananabrain,
I didn't know you were Jewish. I don't pretend to understand all the intricacies of your religion; and I did post this on the Christianity forum.

>and xenotransplants from pigs are permitted in halakhah (jewish law) - we >may not be permitted to eat a pig, but we can certainly save a human life >using one.

This sound like expediency- just like the Japanese Buddhists who decided that deer was a "land whale" so they could eat it. Or that Passover wine is OK even though it is hametz.

In Ex12:15, hametz is generally understood as leavened bread.
>Numb6:3, however, declares wine hometz.
> Positive commandment of eatring the unleavened bread in Ex12:15
>favor the restricted meaning of hametz as leavened bread. Ex15:11
>requires haste, and implies absence of wine, thus suggesting
>expanded meaning of hametz.
>> What are the grammatical arguments of reading hametz as "leavened
>bread," rather than "leavened thing," including wine?

[b-hebrew] hametz - why the restricted meaning?


>what is "indulgent" about eating pigs as opposed to, say, cows? and >what's it got to do with humanhood? this just sounds like a bunch of >overblown windy rhetoric to me.

Many, who are not even vegetarians, would find the idea of horseflesh or dolphin meat undesirable, if not revolting. If such a meat was prepared to taste as well as any other meal, one would find still a natural aversion to the foodstuff; just as there is today, a natural aversion to certain organs of the accepted fleshes that are consumed. This is the beginning of where Man finds he cannot indulge in the flesh of a brother. Where the relationship is so closely linked, he identifies such characteristics- various attributes that he himself is endowed with. It is but a disgusting and degrading practice to enter into cannibalism of this kind.

-The Brothers



>ah, the gospels, of course, also being a 100% factual basis for your >scientific conclusions that pork is unhealthy.
Christianity forum- remember?

Scientific view of the Hog

In 2 Corinthians 6:17 the Lord tells us to come out from them, and not touch the unclean, and he will then receive us. This text refers to the unclean meats, just as it did in the Old Testament times.
In Isaiah 66:16, 17 the Lord says, "For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh. and the slain of the Lord shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord."

>well, as i've already said, observant jewish diabetes isn't half that of the >general population, nor is hindu diabetes, so that just doesn't really stack >up, does it?

It would be difficult to arrange such a trial where say 200 Jews would eat pork for say 20 years and then compare them with the reat.

I did find another successful diabetes trial where a vegan diet was used.



>and who the arse made him an authority on the reasons for kashrut? find >me someone who knows about halakhah that says that and you've got >a case, but i've never heard anything to suggest it.

I don't say or quote "on authority". I always say folk should think for themselves and not rely on "traditions" which are often just based on thin air.

> uncle bananabrain's pet theory about tuma and taharah (unsupported by >official sanction, naturally) is that your average human is a set of pipes, >some physical, some spiritual, some both. thus it is very important what >goes into your pipes and what comes out of them and what they get >connected up to at any given time. seeing things like that it makes a lot >of sense what your various bodily and spiritual interfaces and orifices are used for.

Well, Uncle, I do believe influences beyond the physical enter into us (our soul) with the foods we eat. The Chinese know this very well.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

[Quahom1]

Yous can eat your greens. I'll take the meat; the beef, the pork, the fowl, the crustacen, the reptile, the amphibian, the fish, and the occassional insectoid.

I won't eat monkey, or lemur, or sloth, or wombat. Anything with five digits (including an opposible thumb), is off limits. If they look like me (even on a bad hair day), it ain't 'lunch'...

[Bruce Michael]

It is interesting to see all the ads this thread attracted!

There are special diets for special needs. We can discuss some of these in relation to the temperaments.

We know that home-grown veggies taste better- one aspect is that they have more vitality. My Teachers have suggested that when we come to know a plant before we eat it, we enter into a relationship with it that also leads to greater nourishment. It also makes a difference if the carnivore "knows" its prey before it consumes it. So you could grow at least some of the food you eat- even if it's a little parsley!

There are foods which lack vitality: dried food- dried soup, dried, processed sugar etc. That kind of food will seed bacteria in the body. Also there is less vitality in dried food. Dried food doesn't include substances like beans and grains which aren't artificially dried.

There is more than one reason why juices are so good for you too. Orange juice is not preferred- some people have problems with it; which goes back to the origin of the orange.

Lemon juice in water, and honey in water, before the meal, have been suggested for those who have a weak digestion.

Honey is the best tonic for those with mineral deficiencies. Interestingly honey will cure anemia in children- honey and milk preparation. (As Swiss studies have shown.)

The table grace and table setting are also important.

As to specific foods, turnips have been talked about as an aid to prudent thinking. Dr. Steiner has also related the relationship of root vegetables to the brain/sense system.

The importance of water has been indicated time and again, and unlike some, the Brothers recommend the taking of pure water with a meal- distilled or rainwater is best. It is the harmonizing effect of the water we are looking for.

Steaming vegetables rather than boiling has been mentioned.

As to the vegetarian diet, this is to be approached gradually as individuals find themselves suited. Certain fleshes have been condemned, in particular pig meat. It is interesting, as I mentioned before, how Dr. Steiner singles out pork as interfering with sugar metabolism. Races which are prone to diabetes should always avoid pork in their diets- Asians, Eastern Europeans, Aboriginals, to mention a few. The reason why the pig has always been abhorred is that it is the result of a mixed evolution with man, as I said before.

Other fleshes not recommended are the organs, shark meat (carnivores), and octopus (being quite unrelated in its system to man). In fact, I've found the food prohibitions of Leviticus pretty much hold true.


Bon Apetit,
Br.Bruce

[greymare]

mmmmm shark is yummy. I call it revenge fish. lol and I love squid and octopus. Calamari in garlic sauce. mmmmmmm. I apologise for insulting you lot. I still dont get it but Ill shut up now I think.love the grey