Combining the Sects of Abraham

[Monty]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Bishadi- I don't think Monty was saying anything bad about Christianity or Judaism. I think it's just the standard Muslim viewpoint- we should be believing Muhammad as a prophet and be forthrightly monotheistic.

Same as the standard Christian viewpoint is that we should accept the Trinity.

Same as the standard Jewish viewpoint that Judaism is sufficient.

It's not that any uniformly see the others as bad, but there's no reason not to be honest about the differences.

Thank you path of one, you have replied correctly to Bishadi's paranoia about my post

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Monty

Thank you path of one, you have replied correctly to Bishadi's paranoia about my post

path of one is far the better in forgiving as core to her resounding compassion

The main branch of modern day Christianity cannot be described as 'Islam',

Was an opinion based in your idea of how Islam represents Christianity.

for allthough the Christians define the 'trinity' concept as 'monothiesm', Islam defines it as polytheism

So in the heart and beliefs of Christians, they are submissive to ONE god. Yet, in your opinion, Islam's opinion is other, when most praying is to Mohammed with all the 'peace be to him' stuff everytime the name is mentioned as if he too walked on water, but never wrote a line in the book

From an Islamic point of view, the missing link is: the Christians need to alter their concept of monothiesm

is like saying;

'well the christian and jewish folk suggest Islam needs to stop jihadding' as the way, 'they are using the term' ............'we the people' are at war...

so please; you 'did' throw the first punch.... and the 'path of one' has shared much greater compassion to possibly; seeing what good you were possible conveying and all I did was read what you wrote

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

There's still disagreement in Christianity as to what the divinity of Christ means. Is Christ God or not- that issue. There are denominations of Christianity that do not see Christ as God. Of course, these aer often seen as heretical by the others.

Good point! I was just chuckling, imagining "final status" talks between the leaders of the big three. All the Cardinals and patriarchs, Imams and grand ayatollahs, Rabbis, Rebbe's perhaps, each with his own funky headdress and spiffy robe, arguing the fine points of "compromise." It would be absolutely hysterical!

Chris

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

each with his own funky headdress and spiffy robe, arguing the fine points of "compromise." It would be absolutely hysterical!

Chris

LOL- oh, see here- another point of unity among world religions! We all have a taste for funky hats and spiffy robes!

Even me... seriously, I have a Druid robe in my closet as we speak. Maybe that's what was lacking in my Christianity- the cool robes. No fair that only the priest gets one!

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

LOL- oh, see here- another point of unity among world religions! We all have a taste for funky hats and spiffy robes!

Even me... seriously, I have a Druid robe in my closet as we speak. Maybe that's what was lacking in my Christianity- the cool robes. No fair that only the priest gets one!

Galatians 3:26-27
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Galatians 3:26-27
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

so basically to follow the words of christ, correct?

18And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;

or do you prefer to observe what your preacher tells you to observe?

as to combine the religions means each must loose their 'faith' and return to what is taught of compassion within each sect.

faith causes war.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

faith causes war.

No, it doesn't. Faith is just (from dictionary):

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction;

What leads to war is self-centeredness.

That can twist anything, including faith, into something ugly and violent. We go to war because we fear and we are angry. Fear and anger have nothing to do with faith, but they have everything to do with humans being unenlightened- that is, focused on an illusory "self" rather than on others (the One, the All).

It doesn't matter if, underneath this unenlightenment, there is faith, or nationalism, or science... or any other kind of "identity" issue. The problem is the identity and ego itself. And it won't be solved until people get over themselves and move into a space of compassion toward all beings. That can be had with faith or without, but it is a transformation that is necessary for peace.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Amica

3) Islaam: recognizes both Judaism and Chrstianity as authentic faiths revealed by the Word of God (the Holy Bible)

actually, amica, some forms of islam claim that the "authentic faith" of judaism no longer effectively exists, because the Tawrah is said to be "corrupted". obviously that would mean that there were no longer any authentic jews left since Qur'anic times - but this is, for the most part, an extreme takfiri position.

(5) Judaism: no recognition of Islaam or Christianity as authentic faiths

this is incorrect, as path said here:

From what I gathered from most Jews I've talked with about the matter (granted, it isn't a carefully sampled study or something), they think that Christianity is fine for Gentiles if it's what we want to practice. As I understand it, if a Gentile is following the Noahide laws then we're doing our part in creating a good world and engaging with God. I've never yet met a Jew who told me I had to be Jewish to be "saved." It seems that the emphasis is on here/now- correct practice- rather than conversion.

we recognise both of them as monotheistic faiths in possession of many important spiritual truths and, as such we have a kinship with them and recognise them as "daughter" religions, such that they are not considered idolatrous.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I imagine the bottom line for Christianity would have to include recognition of the divinity of Christ. How that could ever not be a deal breaker for Islam and Judaism is hard to imagine.

exactly - it is the claims of supercession and universality we have a problem with, as well as anyone else who doesn't see that they should be christian or muslim.

Originally Posted by Bishadi

be certain my young friend; all the religions will be nothing but history very soon..

oh, *yawn*. what a load of apocalyptic codswallop. people have been saying this about us jews for several thousand years, yet here we remain - 'am yisrael hai!

moses was not alive when the torah was written

says you. and i don't see what makes you such an expert.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Good point! I was just chuckling, imagining "final status" talks between the leaders of the big three. All the Cardinals and patriarchs, Imams and grand ayatollahs, Rabbis, Rebbe's perhaps, each with his own funky headdress and spiffy robe, arguing the fine points of "compromise." It would be absolutely hysterical!

actually, chris, it's already going on: Alexandria Process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Bishadi

as to combine the religions means each must loose their 'faith' and return to what is taught of compassion within each sect.

i kind of agree with the "compassion" bit of this, but i don't think the "faith" bit makes sense. i know what you *mean*, but you're not expressing it in a very clear manner. like path says, self-centeredness, or selfishness if you prefer, is far more conducive to war.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

No, it doesn't. Faith is just (from dictionary):

What leads to war is self-centeredness.

and what about a belief causing a self centeredness. i.e... the choses ones

Israel; creating a religious state within Palestine because they 'deserved it'?

That can twist anything, including faith, into something ugly and violent.

such as today's killings of innicent people (911) to make a point or how about Gaza.... how about how 2 religious causes are creating a global conflict.....

We go to war because we fear and we are angry.

and resources...

Fear and anger have nothing to do with faith,

that is almost funny in the darkness over shadowing how Iran suggested that Israel should be wiped off the map; so now Israel is going to bomb Iran based in fear, anger and faith....

It doesn't matter if, underneath this unenlightenment, there is faith, or nationalism, or science... or any other kind of "identity" issue. The problem is the identity and ego itself.

gogo ego Israel.... and they deserver repirations from Germany too ? From the children of the country, of a man who began a war; should they 'have to pay'?

from bananabrain

oh, *yawn*. what a load of apocalyptic codswallop. people have been saying this about us jews for several thousand years, yet here we remain - 'am yisrael hai!

but right now we live in the atomic age....

and the exact situation... in the exact time.... with the exact material knowledge on earth to combine the four colors of mankind (of light)

as well, people are willing to die for their beliefs..........

now most of Islam really do not keep attention to the revelations but they are in the quran and can be accounted

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

and what about a belief causing a self centeredness. i.e... the choses ones

A belief doesn't cause self-centeredness. Self-centeredness leads to certain beliefs.

If you understood how the Jews see chosen-ness, you might not see it in this light. From what I understand, it had nothing to do with being better than other people, but rather willingness to have the Torah. (BB, I'm sure, will explain it better than I.)

My point is that being chosen for something has nothing whatsoever to do with self-centeredness. I was chosen to be good at certain things and so I do them. Doesn't mean I will be self-centered. Specialness is not selfishness.

such as today's killings of innicent people (911) to make a point or how about Gaza.... how about how 2 religious causes are creating a global conflict.....

That religion and faith are used by people to justify self-centeredness doesn't make one spring from the other. Nationalism, political creeds, economics, and other aspects of culture also justify war and violence. Again, it isn't the ideas. It is how we use them, how they are tied to the maintenance of "me" and "mine."

and resources...

Which stems from people's unwillingness to sacrifice "mine" for the collective good and sustainability. We wouldn't have resource issues if we practiced sustainable living and generosity-- these are grounded in compassion as opposed to selfishness. So this issue of resources is also grounded in the same fear (of losing what's mine), greed (to increase what's mine), and anger (that you might have more than me).

as well, people are willing to die for their beliefs..........

Being willing to die isn't the problem. Being willing to kill is.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

A belief doesn't cause self-centeredness. Self-centeredness leads to certain beliefs.

Which thereby become the next generations faith.

If you understood how the Jews see chosen-ness, you might not see it in this light. From what I understand, it had nothing to do with being better than other people, but rather willingness to have the Torah. (BB, I'm sure, will explain it better than I.)

Moses 10 C...

and in Judaism I think it is #9.... no fibbing..

so to fib, not good........ but many of the sect will say the Jewish line are the chosen ones ....... by belief, not adherance to the words

makes pure sense that the true concept of being chosen is to adhere to the rules but when adherance permits deception; then the belief is off the mark

but another idea of chosen ones could be to be with Good (God) then they will be chosen; in contrast to do bad is away from God (isolating or islolated from)... this can be as the 'group' puts you out, or in the literal way, to be bad, each choice isolation for truth but focusd on self as priority

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Which thereby become the next generations faith.

Only with their permission, Bishadi. We all have free will. Plenty of people are raised in belief systems contrary to love and goodness, and rise above. No matter what our cultural, religion, or other background, the Spirit is available to everyone and we need only seek to find.

I don't like the victim mentality- that produces helplessness and excuses for not transcending bad action.

We should recognize injustice and work lovingly for justice. But always keeping in mind that each person chooses to authentically seek out truth, beauty, and love... or not. No one makes that choice for them.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

The Christian claim therefore is that the Jews don't know how to read their own scriptures.

I don't think so, at least not all Christians would say this. It's incredibly arrogant, and cutting oneself off at the leg, to say the Jews don't understand their own scriptures. I think the only way to get to Christian interpretations of the OT is to start with belief in Christ and reinterpret back using this lens.

The Jewish response: good grief!

Good grief indeed!

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

The other is to get people to be tolerant, interested, and understanding in other people enough that they respect other beliefs and even might learn something from them. That is, there is unity of respect and love, with diversity of belief and practice.

I totally agree path (surprise, surprise! ). Start with love and unity (and all the other virtues) will flow from there.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Only with their permission, Bishadi.

Sorry as bush does not have my permission to support the conflict in the middle east... and yet we still ALL labeled... with or without the choice....

No matter what our cultural, religion, or other background, the Spirit is available to everyone and we need only seek to find.

The truth that combines beliefs into comprehensionable awarenes is what you've had for the last week and had no idea.

That is the foundation darling.

We should recognize injustice and work lovingly for justice.

that means becoming both introspective and well judgmental but none of it is perfected without the rule estabglished in fact rather than beliefs.

But always keeping in mind that each person chooses to authentically seek out truth, beauty, and love... or not. No one makes that choice for them.

absolutely and since we know many pursue tangents under the same headings, then the grounding foundation in which reality is placed in comprehensible knowledge, should be the primary pursuit to make sure the next generation does not have to continue walking in circles and has them rules in fact....