Concerning the Bab - Page 2

imranshaykh · 12-06-2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Actually, Imran, the Bab is much more. Not only is He the Bab, but He is also the Remembrance of God (Dikhr'u'llah) and the Primal Point (Nuqta). He Himself proclaimed that on His own authority.

That the Islamic world was not ready to accept that is why we have the quibble. If you want to discuss what those other stations might be, fine.

No, I am not interested in pulling skeet for you. Pull them for yourself.

Regards,
Scott

Scott:

Please dont pull skeet if you dont want to. I have already done whatever I had to. If the Islamic world simply accepted everything that a claimant put forward without verifying the claim and seeking answers, we would have had probably 1000's of claimants to every possible position. So we dont "just" accept loose statements. Bab may have been the Dhikr, Nuqta and a host of other things that he may have claimed for himself, but unfortunately, we will need more than that to accept him as the Mahdi.

Unfortunately, his books too dont add value to his persona for at multiple places in his books, he has acknowledged some person else as the Mahdi. So it puts us in doubt. When the Bab himself says that he is not the Mahdi, then why are the Bahais claiming so? You see this is the very question I was asking. How did the Bab become the Mahdi of Islam?

Even for a moment, for hypothetical reasons, we accept the Bab as a "Manifestation", he would be the first in the long chain of Messengers and Imams who publically renounced his Faith. no other Messenger or Imam every did. I dont say so. I was'nt present there. But non-Bahai sources and Bahai sources both acknowledge that the Bab renounced his Faith. It is justified as "Hikmat". Now how do I know whether the other things that the Bab said was Hikat or not? And I say, when divine representatives are from Allah, why should they fear and confuse their followers through "Hikmat"? And when other Messengers and Imams faced much more opposition than the Bab. Example: The Holy Prophet who was exiled from his city, stones thrown at him, but he never used "Hikmat". He still said clearly and without any doubt that he was the Messenger of Allah. So that is why I was asking, how did the Bab become the Mahdi of Islam.

I dont know yet whether the Bahais have really understood the significance of this question - Whether the Bab was the Mahdi. It put the entire credibility of the Bahai Faith into doubt, at least from an Islamic perspective. So that is why I was asking, how did the Bab become the Mahdi of Islam.

From my point of view. I am happy to accept the Bab as the Mahdi. Absolutely no issues on that. There is nothing emotional about accepting anything as long as it is backed by proof. So that is why I was asking, how did the Bab become the Mahdi of Islam.

I would like to end my note on this topic by repeating what I wrote at the start - Please dont pull skeet if you dont want to. I have already done whatever I had to.

Also, I request that I not be labelled as prejudiced. Prejudice is when you dont seek answers - you only assume. Readers to my posts will vouch that I asked the question in vain again and again. And again. Which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill.

Not only did I seek answers, I also took the trouble of reading whatever books of the Bab were available in Arabic and Persian. Bahais can await the translations of the books of the Bab - provisional, authorised whatever and all the best to the Bahais whenever they are made available, if ever they are made available. But as of now, I have no reason to believe that the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Mahdi. I marvel at the Bahais who can make such an authoratative statement without really backing it with any proof.

Scott, I also take this opportunity to offer my thanks for whatever you taught me.

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

Popeyesays · 12-06-2006, 01:54 PM

Imran,

I think the best example is from the Injeel. In it John the Baptist is asked if he is the return of Elijah. John says "No." Jesus is asked if John is the return of the prophet Elijah, Jesus says, "Yes".

Is one of them wrong?

No. They are both right. For John was NOT the physical return of Elijah, but he WAS, in fact the spiritual return of Elijah.

So, is the Bab the Mahdi?

Physically, no. Spiritually, yes.

All the Judaic traditions which spoke of the physical return of Elijah (and I do not really think there are many such traditions because largely the Jews believed that what was dust was dust) are false. All the tradition of the physical return of the 12th Imam as the Mahdi is in fact false. Why? You ask. Because Elijah was not taken up to heaven in the physical flesh. Because the 12th Imam did NOT return in the flesh, He has not been occulted in a physical sense, but in a spiritual sense.

All the traditions which speak of the spiritual return of Elijah to prepare for the Messiah are true. All the traditions which speak spiritually of the return of the 12th Imam are true traditions.

Regards,
Scott

imranshaykh · 12-06-2006, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Imran,

I think the best example is from the Injeel. In it John the Baptist is asked if he is the return of Elijah. John says "No." Jesus is asked if John is the return of the prophet Elijah, Jesus says, "Yes".

Is one of them wrong?

No. They are both right. For John was NOT the physical return of Elijah, but he WAS, in fact the spiritual return of Elijah.

So, is the Bab the Mahdi?

Physically, no. Spiritually, yes.

All the Judaic traditions which spoke of the physical return of Elijah (and I do not really think there are many such traditions because largely the Jews believed that what was dust was dust) are false. All the tradition of the physical return of the 12th Imam as the Mahdi is in fact false. Why? You ask. Because Elijah was not taken up to heaven in the physical flesh. Because the 12th Imam did NOT return in the flesh, He has not been occulted in a physical sense, but in a spiritual sense.

All the traditions which speak of the spiritual return of Elijah to prepare for the Messiah are true. All the traditions which speak spiritually of the return of the 12th Imam are true traditions.

Regards,
Scott

Which traditions speak of the spiritual return of the Mahdi?

Regards
Imran

Popeyesays · 12-06-2006, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Which traditions speak of the spiritual return of the Mahdi?

Regards
Imran

LOL.

I'm not going to pull intellectual skeet for you to shoot at, Imran. If you want to advance an argument do it. Your coquettishness in beguiling me to humor you is silly.

Regards,
Scott

imranshaykh · 12-06-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

LOL.

I'm not going to pull intellectual skeet for you to shoot at, Imran. If you want to advance an argument do it. Your coquettishness in beguiling me to humor you is silly.

Regards,
Scott

Scott:

I am happy that you are laughing. It makes me very happy indeed. You presented the argument with such authority and confidence saying that traditions which speak about the "spiritual" return of the Mahdi are correct. Superb! Wonderful!

Now tell us which traditions.

Again, why will I try to beguile you? You are the expert with years of experience in academic debates. Surely we all realise that. I would be fooling myself if I believe that I can fool you.

Respectfully yous,
Imran

Popeyesays · 12-07-2006, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Scott:

I am happy that you are laughing. It makes me very happy indeed. You presented the argument with such authority and confidence saying that traditions which speak about the "spiritual" return of the Mahdi are correct. Superb! Wonderful!

Now tell us which traditions.

Again, why will I try to beguile you? You are the expert with years of experience in academic debates. Surely we all realise that. I would be fooling myself if I believe that I can fool you.

Respectfully yous,
Imran

Nope. Float your own arguments. Please don't think my opinions have official weight.

Regards,
Scott