Concerning the Bab

Seeker_of_truth · 12-03-2006, 06:02 AM

I was wondering if a kind soul could tell me of a book or website where I can read about how the Bab fulfilled prophecies.

Popeyesays · 12-03-2006, 09:45 AM

Try:
Prophecy: Islám
Prophecy Fulfilled

Seeker_of_truth · 12-03-2006, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Try:
Prophecy: Islám
Prophecy Fulfilled

Muchas Gracias.

Promethium · 12-04-2006, 04:33 AM

Found this on the net. I think it was from the links Scott posted.

The Holy Qur'an even refers to the name of the Book which is to be revealed after the Qur'an in the Surih of Al-Rahmaan: "Ar-rahman allam al-Qur'an khalaqa al-'insaan allama-hu al-Bayaan." -Qur'an 55:1-4 This Arabic passage is translated as: "The Most Gracious! He taught the Qur'an. He created al-insaan [Man] He taught Him the Bayan."

This on might be a prophecy.
Quran, Iron(Al-Hadeed)
"57:28] O you who believe, you shall reverence GOD and believe in His messenger. He will then grant you double the reward from His mercy, endow you with light to guide you, and forgive you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful."
here is the a link to the Surah. Sura 57 Iron (Al-Hadeed)-The Arabic Quran with the Authorized English Translation by Dr. Rashad Khalifa-Koran

Perhaps referring to Two Messengers of God. The verses right before it talk about the past messengers, so this interpretation is quite plausible. The word "gate" is also used in the Surah, but Im not sure if it is referring to the Bab.

Popeyesays · 12-04-2006, 05:36 AM

The twin blasts upon the trumpet is another clear indication.

Regards,
Scott

imranshaykh · 12-04-2006, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The twin blasts upon the trumpet is another clear indication.

Regards,
Scott

When you make such statements liberally, you should preceede it by saying that "in my humble opinion, my view is..." as these interpretation are entilrely your own.

Our prophet's (pbuh) inpterpretation is totally tangential to what you have quoted above. In fact the traditions about the twin blasts are extremely minutely detailed. Unfortunately, there are several traditions from the prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) to the effect, but none which match the Bahai viewpoint. So where you getting your interpretation from?

Regards, as always
Imran

I, Brian · 12-04-2006, 01:04 PM

Think it's the Baha'i viewpoint.

Imran, would you like to invite one or more of the Baha'i members to post something on the errors of Islam on the Islam board?

I believe I did actually remove such a post some time ago, but if you're prefer to engage on Baha'i interpretations from an Islamic perspective that's really going to be the best place for it.

And don't forget to preface any such arguments against Baha'i viewpoints on the Islam board with "In my humble opinion".

Popeyesays · 12-04-2006, 01:25 PM

Well, let's look at the verses in question. The trumpet blast is used several places in the Qur'an but always as a metaphor for Judgement.

"And they do not value God at His true value; while the earth all of it is but a handful for Him on the resurrection day, and the heavens shall be rolled up in His right hand! Celebrated be His praise! and exalted be He above what they associate with Him! And the trumpet shall be blown, and those who are in the heavens and in the earth shall swoon, save whom God pleases. Then it shall be blown again, and, lo! they shall stand up and look on. And the earth shall beam with the light of its Lord, and the Book shall be set forth, and the prophets and martyrs shall be brought; and it shall be decreed between them in truth, and they shall not be wronged! And every soul shall be paid for what it has done, and He knows best that which they do; and those who misbelieve shall be driven to hell in troops; and when they come there, its doors shall be opened, and its keepers shall say to them, 'Did not apostles from amongst yourselves come to you to recite to you the signs of your Lord, and to warn you of the meeting of this day of yours?' They shall say, 'Yea, but the sentence of torment was due against the misbelievers!' It shall be said, 'Enter ye the gates of hell, to dwell therein for aye! Hell is the resort of those who are too big with pride!' But those who fear their Lord shall be driven to Paradise in troops; until they come there, its doors shall be opened, and its keepers shall say to them, 'Peace be upon you, ye have done well! so enter in to dwell for aye!'"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 39 - The Troops)

Now why should "the Book be opened" if it is the Qur'an to which the "Book" refers? It is, in fact already opened. I submit it refers to the Bayan which was the "Book" revealed by the Bab (which means door or gate).

The use of the words "door" and "gate" are also interesting as it is, I submit, a direct reference to the Bab.

Baha`u'llah says I should not allow priests and clergy to INTERPRET for me. It is my responsibility before God to be responsible for my own interpretations. This is contrary to the way the mullahs and imams today would have their believers do.

As to blindly following tradition as it is interpreted by the clergy (especially the clergy of Islam) Baha`u'llah has this to say:

"Concerning the prerequisites of the learned, He saith: "Whoso among the learned guardeth his self, defendeth his faith, opposeth his desires, and obeyeth his Lord's command, it is incumbent upon the generality of the people to pattern themselves after him...."(26) Should the King of the Age reflect upon this utterance which hath streamed from the tongue of Him Who is the Dayspring of the Revelation of the All-Merciful, he would perceive that those who have been adorned with the attributes enumerated in this holy Tradition are scarcer than the philosopher's stone; wherefore not every man that layeth claim to knowledge deserveth to be believed.

Again concerning the divines of the Latter Days, He saith: "The religious doctors of that age shall be the most wicked of the divines beneath the shadow of heaven. Out of them hath mischief proceeded, and unto them it shall return." And again He saith: "When the Standard of Truth is made manifest, the people of both the East and the West curse it."(27) Should anyone dispute these Traditions, this Servant will undertake to establish their validity, since the details of their transmission have been omitted here for the sake of brevity. "
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 118)

imranshaykh · 12-05-2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Think it's the Baha'i viewpoint.

Imran, would you like to invite one or more of the Baha'i members to post something on the errors of Islam on the Islam board?

I believe I did actually remove such a post some time ago, but if you're prefer to engage on Baha'i interpretations from an Islamic perspective that's really going to be the best place for it.

And don't forget to preface any such arguments against Baha'i viewpoints on the Islam board with "In my humble opinion".

Brian: You are correct. I erred in putting up my question. And I accept that. My humble apoligies to Scott to whose post I replied I think.

My tone of my question would have been perceived as one questioning the viewpoint sarcastically. I apologise for that. There is no such intention. This is a forum for expressing some viewpoint. My question was only to seek a clarification on the source of the interpretation which incidentally is as I mentioned tangential to what the Prophet says.

This is not about the errors of The Bahai Faith or Islam. It is only soul searching to know where the interpretation is coming from.

Regards, as always
Imran

imranshaykh · 12-05-2006, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Well, let's look at the verses in question. The trumpet blast is used several places in the Qur'an but always as a metaphor for Judgement.

"And they do not value God at His true value; while the earth all of it is but a handful for Him on the resurrection day, and the heavens shall be rolled up in His right hand! Celebrated be His praise! and exalted be He above what they associate with Him! And the trumpet shall be blown, and those who are in the heavens and in the earth shall swoon, save whom God pleases. Then it shall be blown again, and, lo! they shall stand up and look on. And the earth shall beam with the light of its Lord, and the Book shall be set forth, and the prophets and martyrs shall be brought; and it shall be decreed between them in truth, and they shall not be wronged! And every soul shall be paid for what it has done, and He knows best that which they do; and those who misbelieve shall be driven to hell in troops; and when they come there, its doors shall be opened, and its keepers shall say to them, 'Did not apostles from amongst yourselves come to you to recite to you the signs of your Lord, and to warn you of the meeting of this day of yours?' They shall say, 'Yea, but the sentence of torment was due against the misbelievers!' It shall be said, 'Enter ye the gates of hell, to dwell therein for aye! Hell is the resort of those who are too big with pride!' But those who fear their Lord shall be driven to Paradise in troops; until they come there, its doors shall be opened, and its keepers shall say to them, 'Peace be upon you, ye have done well! so enter in to dwell for aye!'"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 39 - The Troops)

Now why should "the Book be opened" if it is the Qur'an to which the "Book" refers? It is, in fact already opened. I submit it refers to the Bayan which was the "Book" revealed by the Bab (which means door or gate).

The use of the words "door" and "gate" are also interesting as it is, I submit, a direct reference to the Bab.

Baha`u'llah says I should not allow priests and clergy to INTERPRET for me. It is my responsibility before God to be responsible for my own interpretations. This is contrary to the way the mullahs and imams today would have their believers do.

As to blindly following tradition as it is interpreted by the clergy (especially the clergy of Islam) Baha`u'llah has this to say:

"Concerning the prerequisites of the learned, He saith: "Whoso among the learned guardeth his self, defendeth his faith, opposeth his desires, and obeyeth his Lord's command, it is incumbent upon the generality of the people to pattern themselves after him...."(26) Should the King of the Age reflect upon this utterance which hath streamed from the tongue of Him Who is the Dayspring of the Revelation of the All-Merciful, he would perceive that those who have been adorned with the attributes enumerated in this holy Tradition are scarcer than the philosopher's stone; wherefore not every man that layeth claim to knowledge deserveth to be believed.

Again concerning the divines of the Latter Days, He saith: "The religious doctors of that age shall be the most wicked of the divines beneath the shadow of heaven. Out of them hath mischief proceeded, and unto them it shall return." And again He saith: "When the Standard of Truth is made manifest, the people of both the East and the West curse it."(27) Should anyone dispute these Traditions, this Servant will undertake to establish their validity, since the details of their transmission have been omitted here for the sake of brevity. "
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 118)

Scott:

I could not agree more. It is not for the clergy to interpret the Quran. We ourselves condemn such clergy. A tradition says "Curse of Allah and the angels be upon the one who offers his own interpretation of the Quran." We are extremely concious of this and I repeat, we condemn it if clergy interpret the Quran. The interpretations is best left to the Prophet and the Imams who succeeded him.

Having said that, we also respect those clergy who have painstakingly collected traditions and put them together for us. Traditions not from themselves, but from the Prophet and the Imams. I wish to ask one question - why are ALL clergy considered to have "erred" in their interpretation of the Quran and therefore ALL traditions rejected? Traditions came from the Prophets and the Imams and narrated by their companions over the ages. So please can you clarify whether the Bahais really believe that ALL traditions are fabricated on ALL topics in Islam?

This is a very pertinent question because there seems to be a total disconnect between the saying of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) to almost everything that the Bahaullah and the Bab brought. Even if we were to assume a conspiracy theory - that the traditions were fabricated to create an environment not conducive to the Bahai Faith, one needs to remember that these traditions came from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) more than 1,000 years before the arrival of the Bab. Is'nt that too long a time to carry on a consipracy given that the traditions came much much before the birth of the Babi and the Bahai Faiths?

As regards the trumpets again and the books which you have referred to in your interpretation is vastly different. Both were mentioned by the Prophet as the "Day" of Judgement - when all men and women from the first to the last will be raised before Allah - the book referring to the book of deeds done by a person opened before him. This is a very very broad gist of the traditions - the actual traditions are have tremendous detailing. As I mentioned, the Prophet described everything in such detail. Why would he do that if everything were to be interpreted spiritually? Also, when his companions professed their beliefs before the Prophet, why did he not correct them if their belief was wrong, if everything was to be construed as a metaphor.

I have also mentioned earlier that the broad interpretations of the verses lent by the Bahai Faith opens the door for any person t make a claim as a Prophet. Read the books of the Qadianis and other claimants of the Mahdi. The claims are strikingly similar, the verses brought in support of their claims are amazingly the same. Hence we say, lets see what the Prophet told us.

Regards, as always
Imran

Popeyesays · 12-05-2006, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Scott:

I could not agree more. It is not for the clergy to interpret the Quran. We ourselves condemn such clergy. A tradition says "Curse of Allah and the angels be upon the one who offers his own interpretation of the Quran." We are extremely concious of this and I repeat, we condemn it if clergy interpret the Quran. The interpretations is best left to the Prophet and the Imams who succeeded him.

Having said that, we also respect those clergy who have painstakingly collected traditions and put them together for us. Traditions not from themselves, but from the Prophet and the Imams. I wish to ask one question - why are ALL clergy considered to have "erred" in their interpretation of the Quran and therefore ALL traditions rejected? Traditions came from the Prophets and the Imams and narrated by their companions over the ages. So please can you clarify whether the Bahais really believe that ALL traditions are fabricated on ALL topics in Islam?

This is a very pertinent question because there seems to be a total disconnect between the saying of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) to almost everything that the Bahaullah and the Bab brought. Even if we were to assume a conspiracy theory - that the traditions were fabricated to create an environment not conducive to the Bahai Faith, one needs to remember that these traditions came from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) more than 1,000 years before the arrival of the Bab. Is'nt that too long a time to carry on a consipracy given that the traditions came much much before the birth of the Babi and the Bahai Faiths?

As regards the trumpets again and the books which you have referred to in your interpretation is vastly different. Both were mentioned by the Prophet as the "Day" of Judgement - when all men and women from the first to the last will be raised before Allah - the book referring to the book of deeds done by a person opened before him. This is a very very broad gist of the traditions - the actual traditions are have tremendous detailing. As I mentioned, the Prophet described everything in such detail. Why would he do that if everything were to be interpreted spiritually? Also, when his companions professed their beliefs before the Prophet, why did he not correct them if their belief was wrong, if everything was to be construed as a metaphor.

I have also mentioned earlier that the broad interpretations of the verses lent by the Bahai Faith opens the door for any person t make a claim as a Prophet. Read the books of the Qadianis and other claimants of the Mahdi. The claims are strikingly similar, the verses brought in support of their claims are amazingly the same. Hence we say, lets see what the Prophet told us.

Regards, as always
Imran

Imran,

I'm glad we can strike an harmonious chord for a change.

No Baha`i's do not 'hate' clergy each and every one, of course not. It is clergy who emulate Caiaphas and Ananais who attract disfavor. Those who deny what they see in hopes of retaining control of their followers and self-interest in their positions and status.

The pogroms against Babi's and Baha`i's instigated by the Mullahs in Iran and Iraq have largely been politically motivated rather than spiritually motivated.

Those who have uprightly, with justice and love, selflessly done their duties are held in esteem, even if they do not follow Baha`u'llah. Most of the early Babi's were Mullahs. Mullahs made up 60% of the individuals martyred at Shaykh Tabarsi. It was the Sufi clerics in Kurdistan who sheltered Baha`u'llah between 1861 and 1863. He spent many hours in mosques with clergy who, while not agreeing with Baha`u'llah did not let rancor and selfish concerns motivate them against the Baha`i's.

As to "tradition" and "hadith", the Qur'an itself says the Qur'an is the best hadith. That's why I try not to let myself be clouded by "Baha`i hadith" as well. We call such tradition "Pilgrim's notes" because they were usually recorded from conversations with Abdu'l Baha or SHoghi Effendi from fallible memory after the conversation. They may be illustrative or exhibit great love and compassion, but they aren't authoritative text either.

The traditions of Islam are recollection and recall, we know not how much filter has been done to the illumination they provide. Therefore tradition is not authoritative in my opinion.

If I might call your attention to the threads on "Matrixism" you will see people quo0ting Abdu'l Baha to condone things that would shock Abdu'l Baha. They are quoting talks done by Abdu'l Baha and recorded by others which were never authenticated by Abdu'l Baha, they are closer to pilgrim notes than authoritative text, and we cannot trust the translation.

I agree, let's see what the Prophets told us; but I doubt that every tradition is an accurate recording of the Prophet--yours, mine, ours. I would rather trust the text than tradition.

Tradition tells us the Twelfth Imam wandered off in a basement corridor and was held in a city surrounded by a circular river of sand. It's illustrative, but do I believe it as literal? No.
Do you see where I am coming from?

Regards,
Scott

imranshaykh · 12-05-2006, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Imran,

I'm glad we can strike an harmonious chord for a change.

No Baha`i's do not 'hate' clergy each and every one, of course not. It is clergy who emulate Caiaphas and Ananais who attract disfavor. Those who deny what they see in hopes of retaining control of their followers and self-interest in their positions and status.

The pogroms against Babi's and Baha`i's instigated by the Mullahs in Iran and Iraq have largely been politically motivated rather than spiritually motivated.

Those who have uprightly, with justice and love, selflessly done their duties are held in esteem, even if they do not follow Baha`u'llah. Most of the early Babi's were Mullahs. Mullahs made up 60% of the individuals martyred at Shaykh Tabarsi. It was the Sufi clerics in Kurdistan who sheltered Baha`u'llah between 1861 and 1863. He spent many hours in mosques with clergy who, while not agreeing with Baha`u'llah did not let rancor and selfish concerns motivate them against the Baha`i's.

As to "tradition" and "hadith", the Qur'an itself says the Qur'an is the best hadith. That's why I try not to let myself be clouded by "Baha`i hadith" as well. We call such tradition "Pilgrim's notes" because they were usually recorded from conversations with Abdu'l Baha or SHoghi Effendi from fallible memory after the conversation. They may be illustrative or exhibit great love and compassion, but they aren't authoritative text either.

The traditions of Islam are recollection and recall, we know not how much filter has been done to the illumination they provide. Therefore tradition is not authoritative in my opinion.

If I might call your attention to the threads on "Matrixism" you will see people quo0ting Abdu'l Baha to condone things that would shock Abdu'l Baha. They are quoting talks done by Abdu'l Baha and recorded by others which were never authenticated by Abdu'l Baha, they are closer to pilgrim notes than authoritative text, and we cannot trust the translation.

I agree, let's see what the Prophets told us; but I doubt that every tradition is an accurate recording of the Prophet--yours, mine, ours. I would rather trust the text than tradition.

Tradition tells us the Twelfth Imam wandered off in a basement corridor and was held in a city surrounded by a circular river of sand. It's illustrative, but do I believe it as literal? No.
Do you see where I am coming from?

Regards,
Scott

I do have a different point of view on this. As I mentioned earlier, that we too do not permit personal interpretations of traditions.

Secondly, we do have a filtering mechanism - the most prominent of these is the Quran itself, plus the process of veryfying the antecedents of every reporter of the tradition etc etc...

Thirdly, the Quran requires the support of traditions to help man achieve the message of Allah. We all know that Allah ordered us to pray namaz, fast in the month of Ramazan and perform Hajj, pay our taxes etc - The order came in the Qura. But the form of namaz, Hajj, fasting etc was explained by the Prophet.

Shiahs accept Ali (as) as the first Imam. Does the name of Ali appear in Quran. Of course not. But there are traditions and elements of history which verify that Ali (as) was the rightful successor of the prophet.

As regards the tradition about the 12th Imam - yes, I believe he dissappeared from the cellar of his house in Samarrah, but I do not believe that he is located at a single location, not in the city you have mentioned. Again, this is not a belief fashioned out of personal interest or interpretation. It is fashioned out of the traditions of the Prophet and the Imams which said that in the period of occultation, the Imam will be free to visit any part of the world. So even we do not accept all traditions, you see.

But forget about all that. Each of the above points requires a separate discusison - like the discussion about Iran, the Quran etc. I request you not to get in a discussion, right now, about these points. Inshallah, if Allah grants us life, we will go through each one of these them. It seems to be a logical conclusion of our original question - from where we began. So lets complete that first.

Which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill? Can you give the Islamic perspective of this?

Given the number of times I have typed out this question, I can now type it with my eyes closed.

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

Popeyesays · 12-05-2006, 01:55 PM

Imran,

There are many religious traditions which are worthy, many which are not. Many true traditions have been stifled by religious authority as a threat to their own social position, others have been raised, and put forward for the sake of that same social privilege.

If you want to discuss the Bukhari Hadith, I'm willing, but it would save vast amounts of time if you would narrow your own argument, instead of leaving it to me. I truly believe you have the affirmative burden, so I'm not going to let you shift it off onto me. I have decades of experience in academic debate, and I won't be duped by such a gambit.

Propound your case, I'll discuss it. But it is not up to me to put forward a statement in support of the claims of the Bab, it is up to you to repudiate them. The Bab speaks for Himself.

Regards,
Scott

imranshaykh · 12-05-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Imran,

There are many religious traditions which are worthy, many which are not. Many true traditions have been stifled by religious authority as a threat to their own social position, others have been raised, and put forward for the sake of that same social privilege.

If you want to discuss the Bukhari Hadith, I'm willing, but it would save vast amounts of time if you would narrow your own argument, instead of leaving it to me. I truly believe you have the affirmative burden, so I'm not going to let you shift it off onto me. I have decades of experience in academic debate, and I won't be duped by such a gambit.

Propound your case, I'll discuss it. But it is not up to me to put forward a statement in support of the claims of the Bab, it is up to you to repudiate them. The Bab speaks for Himself.

Regards,
Scott

Thanks Scott:

What you are basically telling me that you are not willing to share what prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill.

I raised this question because it is one statement which the Bahais make most liberally - Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Mahdi - at least, the Bahais I have met or interacted with. Even the initial posts on the subject will reveal the same. Therefore I asked "which prophecies?" A question which I believe is a fairly simple one considering that it is a part of Faith. Even if there were no references to substantiate the claim, at least I thought it would help me if one one outlined, as a starting point, the various prophecies that the Bahais believe that the Bab fulfilled as Mahdi. I have seen none expect for the odd 1-2 traditions in Dawn Breakers which aprarently only Shoghi read for he seems to be the only one who reported them.

Given all your experience, I am sure you will appreciate that I put forth a question (Who is Bab). You responded (Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Mahdi / Hidden Imam). I asked, Which prophecies. Does the onus of establishing the prophecies of the Bab lie upon me or you? In my humble opinion, it lies with you. Nevertheless, I leave the answer to this question to you. Please respond if you feel fit or you can skip the question.

Having said that, I will put it down that I still do not know which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill. And that I asked my Bahai friends many times. And maybe they knew the answer. Maybe they did'nt. But they did not tell me. So I still dont know which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill.

I frankly dont have your decades of experience in academic debates nor I am I trying to dupe you. If you are offended by my words, I seek a humble apology.

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

Popeyesays · 12-05-2006, 07:32 PM

Actually, Imran, the Bab is much more. Not only is He the Bab, but He is also the Remembrance of God (Dikhr'u'llah) and the Primal Point (Nuqta). He Himself proclaimed that on His own authority.

That the Islamic world was not ready to accept that is why we have the quibble. If you want to discuss what those other stations might be, fine.

No, I am not interested in pulling skeet for you. Pull them for yourself.

Regards,
Scott