Conversion of the Soul

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Dear Scott, Thank you for your replies to my questions. This exchange really does help my thinking. I'm glad to hear that you were not quoting to condemn me.

I think that the teaching the Baha'i Faith and evangelsim in Christianity are not really very different at all. Both are proclaiming the good news that God loves us. And neither is effectively done by quoting scripture. I think that evangelism is first and formeost loving each other to the best of our ability and assuring others, sharing the good news, that God loves them. "Do not be afraid, for I am with you."

I'll return but for now I have to run.

peace,
lunamoth

I am pushing sixty up close, Lyna. I have know for a long time that the quickest way to set one;s thought in order are to write them down, So, I too, find help for my thinking in both my answers and your comments. Symbiosis is a wonderful thing.

Scott

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Steven,

Thank you for your reply to my question. I think what I am trying to understand here is the distinction between what Baha'is do under the catagory of teaching and what a Christian calls evangelizing, spreading the good news of the gospel. Do you see any difference? Certainly neither the average teaching Baha'i or an evangelizing Christian feels that they are trying to coerce or force a belief upon someone. And some Baha'is, like some Christians, tend to use teaching practices that are more heavy handed and direct than others. Online I've met a number of Baha'i who use much more assertive, even aggressive, teaching approaches than most of the Baha'is I know in person. Perhaps it is because of the relative anonimity of the internet, people are bolder.

peace,
lunamoth

I would say that they key difference is the context of the effort, and the influence brought to bear on individuals from their religion. "Christians" and "Baha'i" are titles we may like to use as if we know pretty exactly what they mean. I speaking beyond individual differences. But I think there are subtantial differences - "Christians" includes subtantial institutionalizations which do not and cannot agree, who's practices of spreading the good news are framed by world views and interpritations of the scriptures which do not allow for eachother, whatever the truth may be. Comparatively, being a Baha'i has a far narrower focus of teachings and interpritations to influence individual action.

So while individuals are of course diverse in their efforts and choices, the standards promulgated by their specific religion do differ and they would affect the choices. The various fragments of Christianity would not be indestinguishable influences on the standards and choices they would make.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I think it's fair to say that most organised religions are involved in some degree of proselytising - after all, spirituality is a profound human experience, and whether it's simply through sheer enthusiasm, or a conscious will, it seems fairly normal to wish to express that feeling of personal profundity with others others, and invite them to share in it.

But there are substantial differences acting as norms in religions. For example, missionary work among Christians almost certainly means a home community is directly supporting a traveler in other lands to bring their own denomination's influence to another land. Baha'is almost never do such things. The Baha'i norm, which we call pioneering, specifically does not rely as a norm on a home community paying the way of the travelor to distant lands.

Proselytizing is something specifically mentioned and within it's real definition is something Baha'is are not to do - this isn't mere play with words.

"It is true that Baha'u'llah lays on every Baha'i the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all the believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing. It is a significant difference and, in some countries where teaching a religion is permitted, but proselytizing is forbidden, the distinction is made in the law of the land. Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion. In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization.

LSA Guidelines (USA) (8:31)"

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

To my faith promulgation is allowed, but evangelizing (proselytizing) is not.

From it's strictest sense, promulgation is simply announcing, usually in respect to human legislative issues.

When it comes to religion, any attempt to try and "spread the faith" is oftentimes going to come across as proselytising in nature, even if the original intention is not one of conscious intention.

Originally Posted by smkolins

It is true that Baha'u'llah lays on every Baha'i the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize

This is where the issue seems to be reduced to mere semantics.

When Christians actively try to "teach" their faith to a lay audience, it becomes defined as evangelical - effectively, a specifically Christian form of proselytising.

Proselytising doesn't have to be aggressive - someone of any faith trying to draw attention to it and spread it's teachings is being promotional - proselytising - of that faith, no matter what label is otherwise attached.

2c.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

From it's strictest sense, promulgation is simply announcing, usually in respect to human legislative issues.

When it comes to religion, any attempt to try and "spread the faith" is oftentimes going to come across as proselytising in nature, even if the original intention is not one of conscious intention.



This is where the issue seems to be reduced to mere semantics.

When Christians actively try to "teach" their faith to a lay audience, it becomes defined as evangelical - effectively, a specifically Christian form of proselytising.

Proselytising doesn't have to be aggressive - someone of any faith trying to draw attention to it and spread it's teachings is being promotional - proselytising - of that faith, no matter what label is otherwise attached.

2c.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

From it's strictest sense, promulgation is simply announcing, usually in respect to human legislative issues.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

When it comes to religion, any attempt to try and "spread the faith" is oftentimes going to come across as proselytising in nature, even if the original intention is not one of conscious intention.

Words have connotative and denotative meanings. Confusion arises when you try to do both at once.

Proselytize means:

Main Entry: pros·e·ly·tize Pronunciation: 'prä-s(&-)l&-"tIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -tized; -tiz·ing
intransitive senses
1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause
transitive senses : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause

This is the denotation of the word, what it actually means, what it comes to "connote" may be completely different. I offer the example of "cult", this is a word that has become useless because of over=emphasis of its connotation as opposed to its denotation.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

This is where the issue seems to be reduced to mere semantics.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

When Christians actively try to "teach" their faith to a lay audience, it becomes defined as evangelical - effectively, a specifically Christian form of proselytising.

Proselytising doesn't have to be aggressive - someone of any faith trying to draw attention to it and spread it's teachings is being promotional - proselytising - of that faith, no matter what label is otherwise attached.

2c.

Main Entry: evan·ge·lizePronunciation: i-'van-j&-"lIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -lized; -liz·ing
transitive senses
1 : to preach the gospel to
2 : to convert to Christianity
intransitive senses : to preach the gospel
- evan·ge·li·za·tion -"van-j&-l&-'zA-sh&n/ noun

Even if you extend "gospel" to its original meaning of "good news". Preach and sermonize are pretty much synonymous. The Baha`i Faith does not allow sermons. We have no pulpits and no clergy to deliver them.

1 a : to cause to know something <taught them a trade> b : to cause to know how <is teaching me to drive> c : to accustom to some action or attitude <teach students to think for themselves> d : to cause to know the disagreeable consequences of some action <I'll teach you to come home late>
2 : to guide the studies of
3 : to impart the knowledge of <teach algebra>
4 a : to instruct by precept, example, or experience b : to make known and accepted <experience teaches us our limitations>
5 : to conduct instruction regularly in <teach school>
intransitive senses : to provide instruction : act as a teacher

There is a substantive difference between "teach" and "evangelize" or "proselytize". Baha`i's "teach", they don't really do the other, despite the perception of some.

Regards,

Scott

[lunamoth]

Hi Scott,

But really don't you think it's splitting a mighty fine hair to make this kind of distinction? If a Christian hands out a pamphlet it's evangelizing, which you seem to consider proselytizing, but if a Baha'i hands out a pamphlet it's teaching, not proselytizing?

peace,
Laurie

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Scott,

But really don't you think it's splitting a mighty fine hair to make this kind of distinction? If a Christian hands out a pamphlet it's evangelizing, which you seem to consider proselytizing, but if a Baha'i hands out a pamphlet it's teaching, not proselytizing?

peace,
Laurie

Well, Luna I have never given a pamphelet to anyone who did not come looking for information. In fact, I can't remember ever passinjg out pamphlets to people without them expressing an interest in what the pamphelet might be about. I don't even carry pamphelets, though I do carry cards with telephone numbers and addresses of the city Bahai Center if discussion should lead me to give out that information.

Do I consider this forum or others like it to be "giving out pamphelets"? Nope.

Regards,
Scott

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Scott,

But really don't you think it's splitting a mighty fine hair to make this kind of distinction? If a Christian hands out a pamphlet it's evangelizing, which you seem to consider proselytizing, but if a Baha'i hands out a pamphlet it's teaching, not proselytizing?

peace,
Laurie

Hi Laurie,

One distinction that I've witnessed...

I worked at the Baha'i booth at the Iowa State Fair for 3 years. Our booth was right across from a Christian booth.

The first year i was there, the Christians would form a line in front of our booth, attempting to divert people away from us. Asking passers by if they had been saved yet. Handing a pamphlet to everyone that walked by.

The Baha'i's would just sit behind their table, talking to each other, smiling at passers by. And would only give out pamphlets if someone came up to the table and inquired.

The Christians mellowed out some by the 3rd year i was there, but there was still a distinctive difference in the approach. Several times they have tried to save me as well.

The most effective way of teaching is simply by living the life, and that entails quoting the writings, not because we are trying to one-up anyone, but rather because they become so engrained in us, as we strive to live the life.

Does that make any sense?

-Amy

[Tao_Equus]

With respect, and without complaint, on many threads where Baha'i post from their perspective it often includes a quotation from your scriptures when none has been requested. This is equivelant to a pamphlet and is arguably an effort to win people to the thinking of your scriptures and thus prosletysing. My feeling is only a Baha'i would see the distinctions you declare. And it certainly does not 'feel' like Baha'i do not try to prosletyse. Again I state that it seems a rather illogical move for any religion to take such a stand if only for the reason it immediately opens an argument of hypocracy any time you try to disseminate your beliefs.

My 2c's


Regards

TE

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

With respect, and without complaint, on many threads where Baha'i post from their perspective it often includes a quotation from your scriptures when none has been requested. This is equivelant to a pamphlet and is arguably an effort to win people to the thinking of your scriptures and thus prosletysing. My feeling is only a Baha'i would see the distinctions you declare. And it certainly does not 'feel' like Baha'i do not try to prosletyse. Again I state that it seems a rather illogical move for any religion to take such a stand if only for the reason it immediately opens an argument of hypocracy any time you try to disseminate your beliefs.

My 2c's


Regards

TE

Your tuppence is always welcome. I answer questions with what the writings say because my answer might be wrong, and you are at least as capable as I of determining what the truth inthose original words might mean.

Regards,
Scott

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Words have connotative and denotative meanings. Confusion arises when you try to do both at once.

Ah, but now you're playing with semantics again.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Even if you extend "gospel" to its original meaning of "good news". Preach and sermonize are pretty much synonymous. The Baha`i Faith does not allow sermons. We have no pulpits and no clergy to deliver them.

This is a distraction from the issue - the pulpit usually resides within a Christian congregation, for a minister to remind Christians of their faith. Trying to absolve any faith of proselytising because it doesn't have a pulpit or ministers is avoiding the issue.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

There is a substantive difference between "teach" and "evangelize" or "proselytize". Baha`i's "teach", they don't really do the other, despite the perception of some.

Let me remind you of your first two posts - an essay aimed at Muslims pointing out the error of their ways, and the ascendency of the Baha'i faith other Islam.

This is "teaching" to you - but if you're going to insist on that terminology, then the Baha'i meaning of "teach" is preach - proselytise. Toying with semantics cannot escape that.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

With respect, and without complaint, on many threads where Baha'i post from their perspective it often includes a quotation from your scriptures when none has been requested. This is equivelant to a pamphlet and is arguably an effort to win people to the thinking of your scriptures and thus prosletysing.

Actually, this is a very good point.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Ah, but now you're playing with semantics again.

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So then words have no meaning, except what you mean - "you" = "listener".

...

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Actually, this is a very good point.

Actually I don't think it is a very good point, despite the norms around here. CR is a voluntary place where one should expect to discuss religion. If participation in CR meant one had to convey Christian norms then it would in essence be prosletysing. But it is not. Same for all the religions. One not need read every post, and one may even setup ignore rules to simply not see a post.

I would suppsoe that as some religionists have thumped with their scripture, all reference to scripture feels like thumping. Of course this can be something done by any religionist, or aetheist. But whatever purpose scripture has been bent to, it must in essence remain it's own purpose. If "what was meant by the scripture" were the reality of religion there would be no need for it as the "what" would become the scripture. But this becomes a problem emediately.

As has been said in many other threads, there are often so many misconceptions of the Baha'i Faith, that to use our own words sometimes causes us grief when we make a mistake, or when others take our comments out of context. If can stick to the scriptures, then we raise or fall on what we stand for, rather than what my fumbling attempt might or might not convey.

In my experience it isn't the use of scripture that is the problem, it's the refusal to read it whether because it is quoted too awkwardly to be read, or the poster and or the reader have no interest in discussion but only in making their own point. Censuring the scripture isn't the solution. Mutual respect and care are.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

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Ah, but now you're playing with semantics again.





Let me remind you of your first two posts - an essay aimed at Muslims pointing out the error of their ways, and the ascendency of the Baha'i faith other Islam.

This is "teaching" to you - but if you're going to insist on that terminology, then the Baha'i meaning of "teach" is preach - proselytise. Toying with semantics cannot escape that. .

Actually, those were not my first posts. And that was an intent YOU applied to the posts in question - beauty is not the only thing which resides in the eye of the beholder. The second post I put up was a translation of a tablet by Baha`u'llah "Ode to the Dove" which is not widely available in English. It did not have a lot to do with Islam or triumpahalism at all. You read with an eye to censure what I had written without paying any attention to what I had written or quoted. If you're going to censor posts because you are prejudiced, you're going to have to get used to the fact that prejudice is what it is. Toying with semantics can't escape that either.

Now this may or may not make you angry. But plain talk is what is called for, and you do not hesitate to speak plainly. Perhaps it will be possible for you to listen that way for a moment.

To look in the dictionary, read what the word means, and use it precisely is God's own gift to dialogue.

Regards,
Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, Amy!

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

I worked at the Baha'i booth at the Iowa State Fair for 3 years. Our booth was right across from a Christian booth.

The first year i was there, the Christians would form a line in front of our booth, attempting to divert people away from us. Asking passers by if they had been saved yet. Handing a pamphlet to everyone that walked by....

-Amy

Given that the Baha'is were doubtless paying a fair sum of money for the booth, I should think that a quiet mention of what was going on to the officials there would solve the problem real quick!

Regards,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, TE!

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

With respect, and without complaint, on many threads where Baha'i post from their perspective it often includes a quotation from your scriptures when none has been requested.

You should understand, I think, the reason why so many Baha'is tend to post scripture passages during discussions.

The basic reason is that every one of us is fallible, and as a rule, we often prefer to quite from our scriptures (which we see as totally reliable) rather than risk mis-stating something--especially those of us whose communication skills aren't necessarily all that great.

So there's really nothing nefarious or sneaky going on here, and it's not an attempt to proselytize or take unfair advantage of anyone else!

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Bruce