Could this be a Mistake? - Page 2

Bandit · 04-19-2005, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I love this passage for so many reasons. As PM stated, it shows the power of non-violence and humility, and encourages us all to follow Christ as peaceful beings.

As for the statements in the gospels that say "the Father is greater than I" and "I and my Father are one," I would put forth that these are not contradictory, nor do they necessarily mean that Jesus is God (despite what the apostles later thought and wrote down). I used to struggle with these, but in time and after much prayer, the conclusion I received was that Jesus was not the sum total of God, but he was a manifestation of God and was one with God. That is God as the great incomprehensible Father Creator was greater than Jesus, but God sent Jesus as a manifestation of his love for us and the aspect of God that is a personal deity. So Jesus was one with God, and in a sense was God (since he had completely given up himself to the Father, for the Father's will to be worked out). But God as the Father still existed separately and was bigger than the manifestation of one aspect in Jesus, which is why Jesus consistently puts himself lower than the Father in the gospels and also still prays to the Father. The trinity is the canonized way of describing this relationship, as well as incorporating the aspect of God that is the Holy Spirit.

By the way, just because the Jews were saying Jesus was making himself out to be God, doesn't mean their assumptions were correct. They also said Jesus was healing through channeling demonic forces, and I doubt any of us believe that was an accurate assessment.

nice arguments here

i kind of see it this way too path_of_one & i think you are on track with it. I think the father & holy ghost is the same spirit.
i dont think Jesus is God or Michael. I think he was a mere man just like us all. i do believe that NOW, Jesus is at the top & equal with God & that through Jesus is the only way to God & people may not realize this. If others believe it different that is up to them.
I believe the Father is who created it all, not Jesus. Jesus was there in the 'beginning', but in it in a very different perspective, the way I see it.

Like Q said, if it was not for Calvary, we would probably not all be having this conversation right now.

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 10:19 PM

Where are the Christians that Beleive the Bible is the word of God? Do we believe the core essientials? What about the following, do we believe it about Jesus?

1. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

2. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

3. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

4. John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Note: Jesus didnt say, "I was."

5. Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

6. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Note: This is such an obvious verse, it would take a lot of effort not to see the truth of the matter.

7. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Note: The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began.

8. Jesus accepted worship. In John 20:28 Thomas say "My Lord and My God." Jesus does nothing to correct or rebuke him. In Revelation John bowed down to worship and angel, but the angel rebuked him. Surely, Jesus would have stopped Thomas had he been making a mistake.

9. When talking to Satan, Jesus says to him "Thou shall only worship God." In the book of Hebrews God tells the angel to worship Jesus. Note: There is NO contradiction because Jesus IS God.

10. Peter says that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 3:26). Yet, in John 2:19 Jesus said that He will raise Himself from the dead. Note: There is NO contradiction because Jesus IS God.

All these are examples from the Bible. I believe if we allow the Holy Spirit to do what he said he will do, we will understand the scriptures. Why? Because it can only be discerned spiritually. I believe if we continue in trying to interprete the Bible, we'll only result in missing what God wants us to know. I believe we should just let the scriptures interprete itself.

Bandit · 04-19-2005, 11:27 PM

sure Conscience, you know more about this than everyone else, so i guess i should just believe whatever you say. i see some contradictions about Jesus being God,

but of course if you say there are not any, then you must be right & i certainly dont want to debate with someone who knows everything, so once again, you must be right & the only one who can discern spiritually.

i appreciate your belief, however it is not the only belief there is on it.

Quote:

Where are the Christians that Beleive the Bible is the word of God?

I am one of them!

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 11:36 PM

Now where did I say I know more than anyone else here? Come on, why would you say that? Just because I have strong faith in Jesus being God, and I back it up with strong examples such as #9 above, you think I believe Im some how smarter than you. Hmmm? Well in that case, let the truth be known...I wasnt the one to say it!

didymus · 04-19-2005, 11:47 PM

I know people here hate it when we cut and paste but it was time efficient. Jesus put himself on a level below God on numerous occasions. I believe that God was above Jesus. God is and was God. Jesus was a reflection and His manifestation of the divine through a human.

I put on this link below which describes the use of one. You can see what the Greek translation was in this case.

John 14:28, for instance, ends with Jesus saying, "the Father is greater than I", and Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:3 says, "the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is G-d". If the reader has ever wondered why Jesus often refers to the Father as "my G-d" (e.g. John 20:17), but the Father never refers to Jesus as "my G-d", this is the reason. Jesus does say, "I and my Father are one", in John 10:30, but he also prayed that the disciples would be one, even as he and the Father were one, in John 17:11. The same Greek word, "ein", is used to mean "one" in both verses and indicates a unity of purpose, rather than a oneness of being. Interestingly enough, after Jesus says, "I and the Father are one" and the Pharisees pick up stones to stone him, he quotes Psalm 82:6, where judges who teach G-d's law are called gods. This always puzzled me when I was a Messianic Jew; I now understand that Jesus was not claiming divinity, but rather claiming to represent G-d in the same way that the judges represented Him.

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 11:58 PM

Again, you guys have a point. As a matter of fact, you're right - Jesus ALWAYS put himself a level UNDER God. Likewise, the Holy Spirit puts himself a level UNDER Jesus, by testifying that he is the Truth, and Way to God. The Father sends the Son who redeems a lost people, and when people come to the Son, they receieve the Holy Spirit who proves to them that Jesus is telling the truth, and that we are to Follow him to Get the the father.

To me that sounds like a plan. When I was little, I used to watch a show called "A-Team." One of the characters on there would always use the following qoute when his plan became a success. He'd say, "I love it when a plan comes together!" This is what I see when I reflect on a Triune God's mission to save mankind. That said, here's what the Bible says n Hebrews 1:8:

"But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Whoa! Did God Just call Jesus (The Son) God? Hmm?

Bandit · 04-20-2005, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

Now where did I say I know more than anyone else here? Come on, why would you say that? Just because I have strong faith in Jesus being God, and I back it up with strong examples such as #9 above, you think I believe Im some how smarter than you. Hmmm? Well in that case, let the truth be known...I wasnt the one to say it!

lets just say, that it is NOT a salvation issue as some claim, though i have had many stones thrown at me because i do not believe Jesus is God. & that i know i am probably only one, of less than 1000 people alive who see it all the way through, the same way.
just remember there are about 10 different versions as to how the Messiah works into the Godhead and in some respect i feel they should all be tolerated.

i respect your faith that you believe Jesus is God, I just ask that you would accept mine the same way, even though you may never understand why i see it the way i do.

i believe it is deeper than any of us will ever know, while in the flesh.

Bandit · 04-20-2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

I know people here hate it when we cut and paste but it was time efficient. Jesus put himself on a level below God on numerous occasions. I believe that God was above Jesus. God is and was God. Jesus was a reflection and His manifestation of the divine through a human.

I put on this link below which describes the use of one. You can see what the Greek translation was in this case.

nice post didymus, that is kind of how i see it too.

any way, i am not really up for a long debate on it, so you guys have fun & i will refrain from here...maybe later.

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 12:17 AM

You are right! I understand that we wont all have the same beliefs, and I respect your opinion and faith. Sorry if I came across intolerant.

truthseeker · 04-20-2005, 12:37 AM

Jesus was definately one with God. But like path of one is saying, Jesus was not the sum total of God. Christians revere Jesus, but when we pray, do we pray to Jesus or do we give honor to Jesus? Do we respect the God that was in Jesus or do we respect Jesus as God? There is a difference. Though you are what you eat, I am not an apple.

Marcion · 04-20-2005, 12:53 AM

Conscience you said:
(In the Trinity there is both oneness of being and distinctness of persons. The Son is eternally subordinate to the Father, but the subordination is not the essence of their being. To understand this, it is to be noted that the relationship is one that inheres within the one divine reality. In other words, the Son is subordinate to the Father not in essence but in relationship. Both statements are true: "I and the Father are one" and "the Father is greater than I.")

How are we all supposed to understand that? Not everyone likes delving into mysticism, it's tough to comprehend the Trinity and about half of all Christians disagree with it alltogether. I for one need things more simple or I get irritated and confused, and then I give up trying to "get" it. I don't think God or Jesus wants things complicated for anyone, that's not why Jesus came here, he didn't come to teach some complicated Trinitarian Godhead. Unless he was just a philosopher or mystic, and Christianity then ends up being just another mystical religion. I believe Jesus came to reveal his Father in Heaven, to save those who were lost in this evil world. Those who come to the Father will be saved. Or would Christians rather twist the message around and say you can only understand Jesus and God through a mystical Trinity? Those who understand the Trinity only will be saved?

Oh one more thing, if the Jews actually thought Jesus was God, then why did the Jews form the Ebionite Sect where Jesus was thought of as the next prophet in line for Jehovah? Messianic Jews today believe Jesus to be a prophet, nothing more...So if we actually trust the earliest concepts of the Christ among Jewish Circles, then we have the Jewish Christians believing he is a prophet only. James the lord's brother was one of these and led Peter astray. Read Galations

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 03:35 AM

Im going to ask a question, give a statement, and qoute a Bible scrpture. Each of the following should put an end to the debate. Its all great that we can speculate and give our own opinions. But, in truth, our opinion dont matter if God has already spoken on the subject. OK, here I go - here's the question conscerning your following question:

"Messianic Jews today believe Jesus to be a prophet, nothing more."

If that is the truth, why do they go around professing "Yeshua Ha Masheck," "Jesus is the Messiah - the Holy Annointed One - God in the flesh?

Here's my statement:

As a Christian, the Bible should be our guildline in finding all truth. After all, it is a Revelation of God.

Here's the scripture:

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

In those scriptures God calls Jesus God. Why are we even having this discussion again?

didymus · 04-20-2005, 04:27 AM

Conscience, I read that over and it does appear that Jesus is being called God. Now if you read on; 3:1-6, you get a different story.

Jesus is being compared a high priest and an apostle. Jesus is ranked higher than Moses as being faithful to God in His house.

Jesus was in the house of God as the son. Then they go on to say that we are the house for Jesus if we believe in him.

Or how about Hebrews 2:5 The Son Made Lower than the Angels. This one has alot of interpretations in it.

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 04:48 AM

Conscience, I read that over and it does appear that Jesus is being called God.

Well then, we should leave it there. Dont you think?

Now if you read on; 3:1-6, you get a different story. Jesus is being compared a high priest and an apostle. Jesus is ranked higher than Moses as being faithful to God in His house.

Jesus IS our high priest. In the OT the high priest would go into the temple's holy of holies, and sacrifice a lamb on the mercy set of the Ark of the Covernant. The Bible reveals that Jesus, God's Lamb, did the very same thing in the Heavenly temple. In the OT, it talks about a man named Melchizedek. This man has no record of being born, or having any parents - he just comes on the scene as a High Priest of God. The NT says Jesus is a high priest after the order of this man (Melchizedeck). I'd like you to read the following, I feel it may bless you:

http://www.geocities.com/rebornempow...priesthood.htm

Jesus was in the house of God as the son. Then they go on to say that we are the house for Jesus if we believe in him.

OK, so? Are you still thinking that Jesus is the Father? I say again, Jesus is not the father or the Holy Spirit. But, like the other 2 members of the Godhead, he is God.

Or how about Hebrews 2:5 The Son Made Lower than the Angels. This one has alot of interpretations in it.

The book of Hebrews does not say that Jesus was made lower than the angels. That said, think about this: Why would Almight God choose to give up his glory, and give everything in the world, even praise and worship, to his Son? Didnt God say he is a jealous God?

didymus · 04-20-2005, 05:06 AM

Personally I'm not held down in my beliefs by any of these passages. I like to read them for insight and to gain in understanding about how Jesus wasperceived in those days. I'm fine with Jesus not being God. There are enough passages in the Bible to dispute the case either way so nobody wins it.

I focus on what Jesus said mostly. Jesus clearly stated he wasn't God on many occasions. Any allusion to Jesus being God in Hebrews was written after the fact and wasn't a quote of Jesus himself. If you read the history of Christianity you'll see there were many beliefs as to who and what Jesus was for years after his death. The writings in the Bible while beautiful and full of divine truths are not the only sources out there.