Could this be a Mistake? - Page 3

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 05:10 AM

Oh, OK. But again, I personally believe that the Bible is the True word of God. And in it, we will find all the truth that God wants us to know. Oh and one other thing, did ever say that he wasnt God, or that he wasnt the father? I know of one time Jesus is qoted of saying that he was God, but I know of no times when he said he wasnt.

mee · 04-20-2005, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

That last explaination would make sense if the Jews didnt say this:

"because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (verse 33).

Apparently the Jews knew what Jesus was getting at.

please ,what chapter are you referring to i cannot find a verse 33 in exodus 3 but maybe i am looking in the wrong place. john 8;33says
They replied to him: "We are Abraham’s offspring and never have we been slaves to anybody. How is it you say, ‘YOU will become free’ .so i am a bit confused which scripture you are referirng to

oh its ok i have just found it john 10

mee · 04-20-2005, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

By the way, just because the Jews were saying Jesus was making himself out to be God, doesn't mean their assumptions were correct. They also said Jesus was healing through channeling demonic forces, and I doubt any of us believe that was an accurate assessment.

yes, i agree with this because in verse 36 jesus himself says he is Gods son.
Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. Jesus replied to them: "I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?" The Jews answered him: "We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god." Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: "YOU are gods"’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father." Therefore they tried again to seize him; but he got out of their reach(john 10 ;31-39)

mee · 04-20-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

Where are the Christians that Beleive the Bible is the word of God? Do we believe the core essientials? What about the following, do we believe it about Jesus?

1. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

2. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

3. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

4. John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Note: Jesus didnt say, "I was."

5. Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

6. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Note: This is such an obvious verse, it would take a lot of effort not to see the truth of the matter.

7. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Note: The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began.

8. Jesus accepted worship. In John 20:28 Thomas say "My Lord and My God." Jesus does nothing to correct or rebuke him. In Revelation John bowed down to worship and angel, but the angel rebuked him. Surely, Jesus would have stopped Thomas had he been making a mistake.

9. When talking to Satan, Jesus says to him "Thou shall only worship God." In the book of Hebrews God tells the angel to worship Jesus. Note: There is NO contradiction because Jesus IS God.

10. Peter says that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 3:26). Yet, in John 2:19 Jesus said that He will raise Himself from the dead. Note: There is NO contradiction because Jesus IS God.

All these are examples from the Bible. I believe if we allow the Holy Spirit to do what he said he will do, we will understand the scriptures. Why? Because it can only be discerned spiritually. I believe if we continue in trying to interprete the Bible, we'll only result in missing what God wants us to know. I believe we should just let the scriptures interprete itself.

John 1:1, RS: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [also KJ, JB, Dy, Kx, NAB]." NE reads "what God was, the Word was." Mo says "the Logos was divine." AT and Sd tell us "the Word was divine." The interlinear rendering of ED is "a god was the Word." NW reads "the Word was a god"; NTIV uses the same wording.

What is it that these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying "the Word was God"? The definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the·os´ (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god.
Jesus—A Godlike One; Divine

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 03:59 PM

Mee:

1. Why did God call Jesus "God" in the book of Hebrews?

2. Why did Jesus tell Satan to worship ONLY God, and in the book of Hebrews God tells the angels to worship Jesus?

3. Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord, and God." Why didnt Jesus rebuke him and say worship only God?

4. Peter said that God rose Jesus from, but Jesus said he rose himself. Was he lying?

5. Why would the Almight God give everything to Jesus, including worship, and praise? Certianly a jealous God will want what he deserves!

mee · 04-20-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

Mee:

1. Why did God call Jesus "God" in the book of Hebrews?

2. Why did Jesus tell Satan to worship ONLY God, and in the book of Hebrews God tells the angels to worship Jesus?

3. Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord, and God." Why didnt Jesus rebuke him and say worship only God?

4. Peter said that God rose Jesus from, but Jesus said he rose himself. Was he lying?

5. Why would the Almight God give everything to Jesus, including worship, and praise? Certianly a jealous God will want what he deserves!

John 20:28 (RS) reads: "Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’"

There is no objection to referring to Jesus as "God," if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as "gods." (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as "the only-begotten god." (See also Ro, By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as "Mighty God," but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as "a god," or "divine," at John 1:1 (NW, AT).

The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: "I am ascending . . . to my God and your God." (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself "the only true God" or that Jesus is a Trinitarian "God the Son," he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31)

mee · 04-20-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

Mee:

1. Why did God call Jesus "God" in the book of Hebrews?

2. Why did Jesus tell Satan to worship ONLY God, and in the book of Hebrews God tells the angels to worship Jesus?

3. Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord, and God." Why didnt Jesus rebuke him and say worship only God?

4. Peter said that God rose Jesus from, but Jesus said he rose himself. Was he lying?

5. Why would the Almight God give everything to Jesus, including worship, and praise? Certianly a jealous God will want what he deserves!

John

2:19-22:

By what he here said, did Jesus mean that he would resurrect himself from the dead? Does that mean that Jesus is God, because Acts 2:32 says, "This Jesus God raised up"? Not at all. Such a view would conflict with Galatians 1:1, which ascribes the resurrection of Jesus to the Father, not to the Son. Using a similar mode of expression, at Luke 8:48 Jesus is quoted as saying to a woman: "Your faith has made you well." Did she heal herself? No; it was power from God through Christ that healed her because she had faith. (Luke 8:46; Acts 10:38) Likewise, by his perfect obedience as a human, Jesus provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead, thus acknowledging Jesus as God’s Son. Because of Jesus’ faithful course of life, it could properly be said that Jesus himself was responsible for his resurrection.

Says A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament: "Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself from the dead independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11)."—(New York, 1932), Vol. V, p. 183.

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 05:48 PM

HmmmK? O................K, I guess? Two quick things though. First,Thomas calls Jesus "God", and not "god." Next, what about the book of Hebrews when God calls Jesus God, and God telling angels to worship God. I once heard a guy who used to be a Jehovah's Witness say couldnt answer that. Can you?

Bandit · 04-20-2005, 05:51 PM

one thing about worship. people literally worshipped Caesars & some thought they were gods. I have seen people bow before some eastern thought teachers & kiss there feet in worship.some cultures still bow to there kings & leaders. i think it was a typical thing for most people to do in those days.

my 2 pennies

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 05:52 PM

We are commanded in scripture NOT to worship created things. Now, if the JW are correct, and that Jesus was created; albeit created 1st among all things, then by God's words we still should not worship him.

Why do people worship Jesus?

truthseeker · 04-20-2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

Why do people worship Jesus?

YOU worship Jesus. Some Christians worship Jesus. Respect and Reverence is not the same as worship. To be in awe of the Holy Spirit in Jesus does not mean that you call the man God but that you give respect to the God that is in him. The culture of the written New Testament is different from not only modern culture but from the cultures of the lands in which Jesus walked. Back then a Master, Lord, and a God (in Greek) were commonplace titles for one who has higher social, academic, and mental status than you. Now that slavery is abolished in most societies, we generally do not use these titles but for that which you personally acknowledge is greater than you. While many Christians will argue Jesus' divinity, everybody doesn't believe that Jesus was God - in which they are right, because Jesus was the son of man. The God in him is revered only by a select group, and that is what makes us Christians.

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 06:31 PM

I wasnt using the word worshiped as respect or reverence, but in the same sense that is given to God. Jesus is worshiped as such many times in Scripture. Why is that?

truthseeker · 04-20-2005, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

I wasnt using the word worshiped as respect or reverence, but in the same sense that is given to God. Jesus is worshiped as such many times in Scripture. Why is that?

I wasn't using the word worship as respect or reverence either. I am telling you that you have to look a little deeper. They respected and revered Jesus. You can do that without worshipping if you have your priorities straight and your pride isn't all in the way.

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 06:47 PM

Hmmm? OK. Question: Does the bible say to pray, or give praise to anyone but God?

truthseeker · 04-20-2005, 10:30 PM

As a matter of fact, I think that it is the second commandment that tells us not to bow down or serve any graven image. Which to me, implies praying.

Praise is something different. You praise your child when s/he does well in school. You praise an orchestra for playing a great piece. You praise a good friend who was there during a very much needed time. To praise is to express approval or admiration. Which, I not only express admiration for good deeds, but I also express admiration for the deeds that directly affect my life. Which can be given to mankind or Christ as well.