Could this be a Mistake? - Page 5

Conscience · 04-21-2005, 04:52 PM

It will take a lot of maneuvering to get around a simple scripture as this:

Heb. 1:8-9

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

By the way, have you ever researched that scripture without reverting back to the J.W.'s view point?

didymus · 04-21-2005, 09:16 PM

John 15:16

Do you take this to mean that Jesus was God? Jesus said ask this of the Father in my name. This alludes to Jesus interceding for us in prayer. You could take it as he saying he was God but I think it is too general to be taken like that. My opinion is that if Jesus knew he was God and was God he would have spoken clearly about it consistently. He didn't do this however, many times he puts God above him.

I think it possible that Jesus saw himself as the messiah of Israel in the literal sense. The Jewish concept of a messiah was that he would be king, be of the line of David and had to be alive to fill this position. This messiah would bring a time of peace to all of Israel.

However, during this time there were growing increasingly groups of radicals or charismatic Jews that were possibly viewing messiahship in a different light. Jesus may have been one of them. Maybe he knew he would die all along, maybe he believed he would day later in his mission. There are many interesting verses in the NT that could lead one either way in their belief.

One thing for sure is that Jesus was tough. He may have been pious and holy but he wasn't timid. He traveled with a group from Galilee, which was an area known for being rebellious and anti authoritarian towards Rome. His men traveled with knives and swords almost as Jesus' bodyguards. Some believe that Judas Iscariot may have been of the Sicarii. The Sicarii were knife wielding terrorists that fought against the occupiers of their land.

Conscience · 04-21-2005, 09:36 PM

John 15:16

Do you take this to mean that Jesus was God? Jesus said ask this of the Father in my name. This alludes to Jesus interceding for us in prayer. You could take it as he saying he was God but I think it is too general to be taken like that. My opinion is that if Jesus knew he was God and was God he would have spoken clearly about it consistently. He didn't do this however, many times he puts God above him.

No, I didnt take that verse to mean Jesus is God. Just that its OK to pray to Jesus. Pay attention.

I think it possible that Jesus saw himself as the messiah of Israel in the literal sense. The Jewish concept of a messiah was that he would be king, be of the line of David and had to be alive to fill this position. This messiah would bring a time of peace to all of Israel.

Jesus was the promise messiah, the bible even pin points the exact date of his arrival in Jerusalem as Messiah. You're right about the Jews though. They thought the Messiah would defeat Rome, and usher in the Messanic Kingdom. What they didnt realize then was, God cares For ALL humanity, not just the Jews. And, because God so loved the world, he sent his only son, that whoever believes in him will not die, but have eternal life. The Seconding coming of the Messiah will fulfill the Jews expectations.

That said, there is much that you dont understand about Scriptures. Have you not read the Bible? Dont you see the plan of God?

Abogado del Diablo · 04-21-2005, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

John 15:16

No, I didnt take that verse to mean Jesus is God. Just that its OK to pray to Jesus. Pay attention.

Ummmm . . . no, it doesn't. It says it's okay to pray to God in Jesus's name. That's different than praying to Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

That said, there is much that you dont understand about Scriptures. Have you not read the Bible? Dont you see the plan of God?

And the irony thickens . . .

Conscience · 04-21-2005, 10:16 PM

Was it you that I was having the "its Biblical" to pray to Jesus conversation, or do you just like to talk?

"Come quickly Lord Jesus."

Thats a pray to the Lord.

truthseeker · 04-21-2005, 10:22 PM

That's true, Conscience.
Hmmmmm.

If you believe Jesus is God, then it would be fitting to pray to him. If you don't believe Jesus is God, then it is idol worship.

didymus · 04-21-2005, 10:26 PM

Don't worry man, I'm paying attention. I can see you coming from a mile away and I know what you'll say before you say it. That's because I've been where you are right now. If you want to challenge my knowledge of scripture that's ok, I'll admit there is alot I don't know, but on the other hand I am very familiar with the majority of it.

What I know about you is that there is much you don't know. This is obvious in your arguements. You see only the "orthodox" and "approved " interpretation. If you did a ;ittle research you might have a different slant on things. What you have a hard time with is that I see certain things differently than you do. I don't let other people tell me what it means anymore. if I agree with them that's good, if I don't then I don't.

Conscience · 04-21-2005, 10:32 PM

I hear you Didymus, I'll consider you words. That said, no I dont want to challenge your knowledge of scripture, even though Im sure I will unintentially do in time. For now we can just enjoy each others posts and replies.

C ya on another thread. I think this one is done?

Quahom1 · 04-21-2005, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

where does Jesus tell people to pray in his name??

I Know John: 12 12-14 specifically states that if one asks anything in Jesus name, He will do it to further glorify the Father...

v/r

Q

Faithfulservant · 04-22-2005, 12:25 AM

I pray to Jesus all the time.. I have received healing while praying to Jesus. My mom has received healing while praying to Jesus.. Jesus is our mediator with the Father.. of course we are to ask him for mediation.

"Thank you Jesus for dying on the cross for my sins.. Please forgive me for all my many sins."

I also pray to the Holy Spirit.. He is my helper. I ask Him to be present while I read the word to interpret for me and to give me wisdom to understand and help me to apply what I learn in my life.

Conscience · 04-22-2005, 12:49 AM

Very Cool FaithfulServant!

mee · 04-22-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

It will take a lot of maneuvering to get around a simple scripture as this:

Heb. 1:8-9

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

By the way, have you ever researched that scripture without reverting back to the J.W.'s view point?

here are scriptures from the rest of the bible that tells us Jesus has been given kingship and authorityfrom Jehovah God.
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth(matthew 28;18)notice given me

Therefore, because he(David) was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his throne(acts 2; 30)the one spoken of here is jesus who was in the line of David.

To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father (Jehovah)on his throne(rev 3;21)

and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: "You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you(luke3;22)so it is Jehovah who approves jesus.

"Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release(luke 4; 18)again it is Jehovah who is annointing Jesus,

And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin(daniel 7;14)notice to him (jesus) there was given rulership,dignity and kingdom.

All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him(matthew 11;27)notice again all things have been delivered to me by my Father(Jehovah).

For this very reason also God (Jehovah)exalted him (jesus)to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name(philippians 2;9)

The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand(john 3;35)notice again given him.

However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] "subjected all things under his feet." But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone(1 corinthians15;20-28)so it is Jehovah God who gives his son Jesus his (Gods)throne

Quahom1 · 04-22-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

here are scriptures from the rest of the bible that tells us Jesus has been given kingship and authorityfrom Jehovah God...However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] "subjected all things under his feet." But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone(1 corinthians15;20-28)so it is Jehovah God who gives his son Jesus his (Gods)throne

I've read the scriptures you presented. And I disagree with your perspective on the Godhead of Jesus.

You say He is not God, and I say He is. You say He is not equal to the Father in all manner of things, and I say He is. You are not inclined to think any other way, and I have no intention of changing my view in this matter.

So I guess we agree to disagree.

v/r

Q

mee · 04-22-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I've read the scriptures you presented. And I disagree with your perspective on the Godhead of Jesus.

You say He is not God, and I say He is. You say He is not equal to the Father in all manner of things, and I say He is. You are not inclined to think any other way, and I have no intention of changing my view in this matter.

So I guess we agree to disagree.

v/r

Q

But what does the bible say ,its not what we think ,its what the bible says
Because Jesus had such a close relationship with God, he could explain and reveal what our Creator is like. (Luke 10:22; John 1:18) Jesus testified that his closeness to his Father began in heaven, where he worked with God in bringing into being all other things, animate and inanimate.—John 3:13; 6:38; 8:23, 42; 13:3; Colossians 1:15, 16
All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him(luke 10;22)

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him(john 1;18)

Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man(john 3; 13)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens(colossians1;15-20

because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me(john 6;38)

Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth

So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world(john 8;23)

Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth(john8;42)

he, knowing that the Father had given all things into [his] hands and that he came forth from God and was going to God(john 13;3)

Quahom1 · 04-22-2005, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

But what does the bible say ,its not what we think ,its what the bible says
Because Jesus had such a close relationship with God, he could explain and reveal what our Creator is like. (Luke 10:22; John 1:18) Jesus testified that his closeness to his Father began in heaven, where he worked with God in bringing into being all other things, animate and inanimate.—John 3:13; 6:38; 8:23, 42; 13:3; Colossians 1:15, 16
All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him(luke 10;22)

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him(john 1;18)

Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man(john 3; 13)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens(colossians1;15-20

because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me(john 6;38)

Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth

So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world(john 8;23)

Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth(john8;42)

he, knowing that the Father had given all things into [his] hands and that he came forth from God and was going to God(john 13;3)

Don't you dare...don't go there. I know what I know, and you are in no position to dictate otherwise to me...that is when it becomes personal.

We agree to disagree.

Q