Council axes Christian prayers

[Quahom1]

[quote=wil;88097]a)

The first thought would leave odes and traditions of slavery in place...

Only for those who believe in enslaving another. (never crossed my mind until you mentioned it).

b) The pledge has been altered thrice...once to ADD 'under G-d' and once to CHANGE our salute from an outstretched palm to the flag to hand over our heart...original modifications were made from the socialist pledge for all nations...

Yep, that is today's world. Oh and military do not hit heart with palm fist then thrust out in a Heil (or Hail). We touch the edge of our visor, or if wearing a garrison cap, touch our brow with a hand bent downward, then smartly lower our arm. It is an action of respect, not one of patronage. The forefathers were very smart men...they saw you coming for miles and years.

c) In respecting each other we change and modify as we grow...as our pledge has...

"
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Yours is not the same truths as mine.

[Zagreus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You can dish it out, but can't take a little of your own sarcasm? Or is it you just don't like dealing with others that might have a tad bit of the intelligence you posses, enough to challenge you to serious debate?

Alright, Quahom1, if you press me on this matter, then I will speak my mind politely, but directly. See below.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You forget, once you submit an original piece, it is e-mailed.

Yes, and you had a choice. You could have respected that I chose to alter my post. You could have given me the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that I had a good reason. You clearly *knew* that I made some changes before you posted in response. So if you toss down the glove, please don't come back with any of this "I'm going to intervene as a moderator to end this argument" crap, just because you don't happen to agree. All too often, we've seen threads closed when there's a little heat in the kitchen. Don't worry, if the roof's on fire, I'll find the Exit signs.

If I lose this argument, then the only thing I have to concede is that you have a different *opinion* than mine. Let's be clear on that. Christian majority does not necessarily equal Truth in my book, nor does the mob rules mentality sway me. I couldn't care less about a 600 year old tradition, if that tradition can be preserved in Spirit, yet adapted for a greater good (religions change as people grow). Similarly, if the majority in Totnes happened to be Buddhists, and there were some Christians or Jews who wished for accomodation in the opening Invocation/Prayer, then I wouldn't pitch this royal fit as you are ... about 2 minutes here, 2 minutes there, time for these buggers over here, yadda yadda. Before the thing is all over, you'll have half an hour on the agenda for opening ceremonies, and precious little time left for - what was this again, a *town council meeting*???

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Here is where one is either convinced, convinces or concedes. Because here is where the rubber meets the road. This is THE christian forum. And the "philosophers' here are pretty well versed in their beliefs. They aren't exactly stupid sheep either. So roll up your sleeves and get down to work, or throw in the towel. But don't go blaming others for standing up for what they believe, simply because you don't believe the same thing and changing their minds might take a little sweat...that's the easy way out.

Okay, then if it's about convincing, being convinced or conceding, then I'll make it easy for you. I'll concede that YOU believe this mayor is in error. You and I differ on this one, and some will fall on either side of the issue, but I've already stated that I happen to think the tradition is a good one ... while I also believe that nothing will be lost by continuing it in the silence of the heart.

To me, there is no difference within the heart, when we pray to Allah, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, or what-have-you. Even the agnostic may have a way of centering, aligning, or just a few deep breaths to become calm and clear-headed. Now folks here on Christianity may believe otherwise, but then, that's not really what's up for debate. Still, the belief that "In Jesus' name" is somehow an important part of this ceremony *definitely* informs the Christian approach (for many people), so I think it would be helpful to clarify that I find prayer/meditation/silence every bit as helpful, so long as the aspiration is pure, the heart and mind sincere.

This is my BELIEF. I have utmost Faith that I am correct. And if I cannot convince you, then we'll just have to let that one go, since I don't care one way or the other whether we agree. Clearly, if we agreed on this point, you'd be much more inclined to agree with me - that the Totnes Mayor's move was NOT a "PC" decision, but one that considers the greatest good for the greatest number, while seeking to also honor the beliefs of each & every *individual* present at the meetings - AND to not lose the Christian heritage and tradition altogether.

That's all I've got for the moment, until the coffee hits my brain. I did want to say one more thing though. Blazn, thanks for your response, and elaboration! This gives me much more to think about, and I see that there's already been good some discussion. I'm a bit lost with all the saluting and so on, but there is one point that strikes me with a definite resonance.

I'm a believer in the power of mantrams - whether chanted, intoned, or even just spoken aloud. These can be Hindu, many thousands of years old, or they may be in Aramaic, as Jesus responded when asked how to pray, giving the Lord's Prayer or Our Father. Either way, there is the power of Sound present (shabda), and in a couple of posts Quahom1 and I were mentioning the Word (with multiple entendres) vs. Silence.

I think that in changing the flow or composition of a mantram, prayer, or something like the Christian Liturgy, definite changes come about. Usually, the changes are so profound that one tries to hold off for as long as possible, unless there are overriding concerns which show us in a greater light ... that the change is best (as I think is clear at Totnes).

The Christmas Eve service at my parents' church is more or less the same each year, and I've come to know what to expect so well, that if things were altered more than slightly, I'm sure I'd wonder why - and perhaps question the change just because of *what I'm used to*.

Another example of the power of sound comes in a particular mantram which many believe was given to us (in the 1940s) by the same Christ Who taught us how to pray 2000 years ago. It is a very similar set of verses, with a cadence, and a clarity of meaning, as well a definite purpose behind it, even a power that I think is undeniable for anyone who uses it regularly. It is very similar to what I've always felt while saying the Lord's Prayer, whether aloud or silently.

Some have updated this Invocation in recent years to be *politically correct*, by making language non-sexist, as well as by substituting "Coming One" for the word "Christ." The intent behind the words is surely what is of greatest import, but to say that the words themselves - whether spoken aloud or silently - do not have power, would be in error. When all is said and done, using the Invocation is what matters, imo, and to become lost in a dispute over political correctness is just the picking of nits, needlessly. So too, this problem at Totnes.

But I'll say again: the problem of (is the) Christian Faith under fire (?) - which is a larger issue - seems like it is of much more importance, and worthy of its own thread.

~Zagreus

[Quahom1]

There is nothing to win or lose. The "concession" is that we have differing opinions. My problem is the implication that my opinion is wrong, or quaint, or not with the times.

If you read other's posts (where some were closed), you might see that being bowled over isn't appreciated, so I get edgy sometimes (for the forum's sake).

And I happen to think just because something is deemed politically correct, doesn't make it right either.

v/r

Joshua

[17th Angel]

I actually pull back my opinion... I know I said it was wrong to remove it but I believe it was right to remove it, now I have had time to dwell on it.... lol a lot of time eh...

I think indeed for christians it is good.... But you can do it in your own time..... Not only that, I wouldn't want to be apart of this group prayer.... I was thinking more at muslims and jews and whatever... Not even considering those that do not even have a diety they call master...... I believe I'd be uncomfortable in that situation and If that is my job and work place I do not deserve to be placed into that situation.... It is wrong.

*nods*

[Francis king]

don't know how many of u have been to Totnes, but its a pretty introverted place, and oh so white! I spent an hour or two in Totnes just standing on the main street, looking for some ethnic diversity, and there was none, not one black, yellow or red face did I see, although I did manage to find one Big Issue seller...

I am glad that they have stopped the council saying xtian prayers- after all, look at the state of american politics- dya really want a gang of uptight xtians running the show? what happens then to the buddhists, and the muslims? Hardly inclusive, is it, to open business with prayers directed to just the one God..?

we're english, not american! if it wasn't for the english rejecting the traditions of olde then there wouldn't be any proddies or Quakers...

as for the Daily Mail- in england we're savvy enough to know what papers favour what political parties, and the Daily Mail is not known for it's objective reportage... rather, the Daily Mail is read by posh whiteys with a conservative bent, and an over large chip...

I followed the link, and could not find the article, but did find a lovely piece on how much the orphan Kosovan children cost "us"... perfect example of objective reporting, isnt it?

yes, all animals are created equal, but as orwell wrote in animal farm- some are more equal than others...

should that be the case in a council chamber?

[17th Angel]

That is why I said it wasn't right to remove the prayer.... But I forgot about people like myself who are not wanting to participate in such acts..... I live not so far from Totnes... Indeed... Quite different than scouser land eh Francis?

[Francis king]

oh yes, it's great ere... diversity rules (on paper at least)

We have a big somali community, yet if ur somali, try getting a job!

[17th Angel]

Couldn't that just be lack of jobs... You live in a very heavily populated area..... But I guess this would be another topic...

[Snoopy]

A council is the agency of local government, a place of work and as such, a secular establishment. It is not a religious establishment and so religious practices in it as part of its routine are not appropriate. In the past when every councillor would probably have described themselves as a Christian, this fact would not have been an issue but in 2007 in a country of varied cultures and beliefs, its inappropriateness is now glaring. If all the councillors were Muslims would they want to be saying Christian prayers? The plain fact is, it is not appropriate in a secular place of work, irrespective of the "mix" of councillors. It is also giving out the wrong message to maintain a religious element that is not applicable to all potential councillors. It is giving a non-verbal cue of its non-inclusivity (i.e. if you’re not comfortable with taking part in, or ignoring Christian prayers, then this isn’t the place for you). Christian prayers belong in a Christian church the same as Sikh prayers belong in a Sikh temple. And leave the councillors to sorting out our rubbish collections.

s.