Council axes Christian prayers

[BlaznFattyz]

It was a dignified British Christian ceremony, traditionally carried out for more than 600 years.

But prayers held before council meetings in one of the nation’s oldest boroughs have been scrapped to allay fears they may offend other religions.

For 600 years, vicars had opened proceedings at Totnes Town Council in Devon with a prayer to ask for God’s help in making the right decisions. Every meeting was closed with a rendition of the Lord’s Prayer.

Cont'd

[Zagreus]

Once again, let's look at article highlights:

Mayor Pruw Boswell, 64, ordered the prayers be replaced with a “quiet moment of reflection” so the council could be “sensitive to others’ needs”.

Last night Mrs Boswell – a practising Roman Catholic – defended the move, saying there had been members of the town council in the past who were Buddhists.

“A mountain is being made out of a molehill,” she said. “I don’t know how long the prayers have been said but different people have different wishes. If people want to say prayers on their own they can – we have just taken away the person who leads them.

This looks like an open 'n shut case, to me. The moments of silent reflection were NOT removed from the 600-year old tradition. Respect for people of other faiths and backgrounds was added. Everyone is free to pray, reflect, give thanks, ask a blessing, or do what they please - you can even ponder why it is that paint takes so long to dry, or try and watch it do so, if you like.

Of course, we can always resist this crazy idea that other people deserve respect, regardless of their faith. We can always insist "my way or the highway." And our world will get much smaller, much colder.

~Zag

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zagreus

Once again, let's look at article highlights:

Mayor Pruw Boswell, 64, ordered the prayers be replaced with a “quiet moment of reflection” so the council could be “sensitive to others’ needs”.

Last night Mrs Boswell – a practising Roman Catholic – defended the move, saying there had been members of the town council in the past who were Buddhists.

“A mountain is being made out of a molehill,” she said. “I don’t know how long the prayers have been said but different people have different wishes. If people want to say prayers on their own they can – we have just taken away the person who leads them.

This looks like an open 'n shut case, to me. The moments of silent reflection were NOT removed from the 600-year old tradition. Respect for people of other faiths and backgrounds was added. Everyone is free to pray, reflect, give thanks, ask a blessing, or do what they please - you can even ponder why it is that paint takes so long to dry, or try and watch it do so, if you like.

Of course, we can always resist this crazy idea that other people deserve respect, regardless of their faith. We can always insist "my way or the highway." And our world will get much smaller, much colder.

~Zag

Hardly. A six hundred year tradition killed off in a moment of political correctness is not my idea of respect. It is plain disrespect for the majority that continued the tradition...

[Zagreus]

So in your opinion Quahom1, this Mayor Boswell is a traitor to the RCC?

And would you not say that WHATEVER the majority agree upon, and WHATEVER becomes habitual based on repetition, is "right?" It sure looks to me like this is your take on it. Tell me how this is *not* what you're saying.

~Zag

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zagreus

So in your opinion Quahom1, this Mayor Boswell is a traitor to the RCC?

And would you not say that WHATEVER the majority agree upon, and WHATEVER becomes habitual based on repetition, is "right?" It sure looks to me like this is your take on it. Tell me how this is *not* what you're saying.

~Zag

Indeed. If I were in a temple in Taipei, I would not demand that they cease their chants. Nor would I demand Muslims stop kneeling five times a day in their land and their mosques.

I fail to see your logic on this matter. A Christian community is suddenly told to cease praying for fear of offending non Christians? Tell me sir, this is NOT what you are saying...

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I fail to see your logic on this matter. A Christian community is suddenly told to cease praying for fear of offending non Christians? Tell me sir, this is NOT what you are saying...

It doesn't appear to be that at all. No one was told to cease praying. What was done was it appears to me a Christian did a very Christian thing, decided to respect others. There was one voice in prayer, this was silenced to allow every voice to be in prayer...silently.

And as usual all of us not involved decide to put out our voice as to whether something that was done which does not involve us is right or not. It appears the one that made the decision was hired to make decisions and did.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

It doesn't appear to be that at all. No one was told to cease praying. What was done was it appears to me a Christian did a very Christian thing, decided to respect others. There was one voice in prayer, this was silenced to allow every voice to be in prayer...silently.

And as usual all of us not involved decide to put out our voice as to whether something that was done which does not involve us is right or not. It appears the one that made the decision was hired to make decisions and did.

If one wishes to pray silently, there is the closet or the bedroom...but David went leaping and dancing before the Lord, and it was good in God's sight...The "mayor" made a mistake.

[Quahom1]

...to every thing there is a season, and a time under heaven...

[Zagreus]

Please note Quahom1, this is the Totnes Town Council in Devon, not a Christian Church. So let's revisit this:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Indeed. If I were in a temple in Taipei, I would not demand that they cease their chants. Nor would I demand Muslims stop kneeling five times a day in their land and their mosques.

I fail to see your logic on this matter. A Christian community is suddenly told to cease praying for fear of offending non Christians? Tell me sir, this is NOT what you are saying...

Apples to apples. The Cotnes community in Devon is not a Church, Christian or otherwise. This is a matter of church and state - you know, never the the twain shall meet. Case closed. A person with his or her finger in the book should take this up with folks like the Founding Fathers of the US of A. Sure this is the UK. But America isn't the ONLY place where it's (still) unwise to mix religion and politics.

This isn't about "political correctness," which is pretty much an oxymoron anyway. It's about expanding one's heart and mind, or a community's collective hearts and minds, to include those who are different, but have the SAME RIGHTS under *whatever* Constitution, or Law of the Land, happens to be on draft at the time. This is about something BIGGER than you, or me. It's about God, and the right of people to worship and acknowledge - or even to NOT worship and acknowledge - God, in a way that is fitting for them.

You yourself acknowledge the words of Christ Jesus Himself, wherein He instructed the inquisitive both in what manner to pray, and under what circumstances. He gave a word-form, or mantram - The Lord's Prayer, or Our Father. And He did indeed say to go into a *silent place*, though I would suggest "closet" may refer to the Hidden Chamber of the Heart, and not that place where you hang your overcoat.


But still, you do not need to scream vain repetitions from the rooftops. Who and what we are is already proclaimed in such manner, whether we like it or not.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

...

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Matthew 6:5,7

Shall we scream about oppression, or in our unrest do we not make ourselves into the very people of these two verses, whom Jesus rebuked. Was not His example that we should in fact, be praying in secret, or in quiet?

I somehow doubt any Buddhists would be offended if the political authorities insisted on carrying out the tradition of Christian Prayer, in Devon, or wherever. Yet we see the Christian reaction to being asked to do those dangerous, idolatrous, blasphemous and heathen Yoga stretching and chanting exercises.

Frankly though, I don't blame people for being upset. If I was as worried about my house crumbling around me as some people seem to be, I guess I'd be screaming xenophobically at everything I perceived as threatening, too!

Two houses, one of fear, one of Love. Only one can stand the test of time, for one of these has a foundation of Rock, while the other is built entirely upon sand. You don't have to be a Roman Catholic to understand this.

~Zag

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zagreus

Please note Quahom1, this is the Totnes Town Council in Devon, not a Christian Church. So let's revisit this:

Apples to apples. The Cotnes community in Devon is not a Church, Christian or otherwise. This is a matter of church and state - you know, never the the twain shall meet. Case closed. A person with his or her finger in the book should take this up with folks like the Founding Fathers of the US of A. Sure this is the UK. But America isn't the ONLY place where it's (still) unwise to mix religion and politics.

This isn't about "political correctness," which is pretty much an oxymoron anyway. It's about expanding one's heart and mind, or a community's collective hearts and minds, to include those who are different, but have the SAME RIGHTS under *whatever* Constitution, or Law of the Land, happens to be on draft at the time. This is about something BIGGER than you, or me. It's about God, and the right of people to worship and acknowledge - or even to NOT worship and acknowledge - God, in a way that is fitting for them.

You yourself acknowledge the words of Christ Jesus Himself, wherein He instructed the inquisitive both in what manner to pray, and under what circumstances. He gave a word-form, or mantram - The Lord's Prayer, or Our Father. And He did indeed say to go into a *silent place*, though I would suggest "closet" may refer to the Hidden Chamber of the Heart, and not that place where you hang your overcoat.



But still, you do not need to scream vain repetitions from the rooftops. Who and what we are is already proclaimed in such manner, whether we like it or not.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

...

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Matthew 6:5,7

Shall we scream about oppression, or in our unrest do we not make ourselves into the very people of these two verses, whom Jesus rebuked. Was not His example that we should in fact, be praying in secret, or in quiet?

I somehow doubt any Buddhists would be offended if the political authorities insisted on carrying out the tradition of Christian Prayer, in Devon, or wherever. Yet we see the Christian reaction to being asked to do those dangerous, idolatrous, blasphemous and heathen Yoga stretching and chanting exercises.

Frankly though, I don't blame people for being upset. If I was as worried about my house crumbling around me as some people seem to be, I guess I'd be screaming xenophobically at everything I perceived as threatening, too!

Two houses, one of fear, one of Love. Only one can stand the test of time, for one of these has a foundation of Rock, while the other is built entirely upon sand. You don't have to be a Roman Catholic to understand this.

~Zag

Quite the contrary. The House and Senate aren't churches either, but the leaders open their session with a prayer of guidance, and have done so for the past 230 years. And I fail to see where asking a supreme being for guidance and blessings while leading people is hypocritical. Nor do I adhere to the opinion that the needs of the few outway the needs of the many.

The seperation of church and state as you point out is actually a one sided restriction. It prohibits the government from infringing upon the people a state sanctioned religion, or forcing a public servant from adhering to a state sanctioned religion in order to hold office. It does not preclude a body of people from invoking guidance from a common deity in the course of performing their duties. And those who do not believe or do not wish to hear such public invocations have the right not to, so they can step out of earshot and then step back in. Nor does it remove the rights of public servants or anyone for that matter, from being influenced in good consience by their particular beliefs, while in the performance of said public duties.

Of course that is in the United States...

v/r

Joshua

[Snoopy]

Hi,

Ah yes taken from the good old Daily Express, their angle on the matter is as you'd expect. They love wringing their hands over stuff like this.

Give us back our little England!! Send them pesky foreigners home!!! Sterilise the poor!!!!! etc etc with their usual reactionary bigotry....

s.

[Zagreus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I fail to see where asking a supreme being for guidance and blessings while leading people is hypocritical.

Because He already gave you these. See those Buddhists in the council meetings?

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nor do I adhere to the opinion that the needs of the few outway the needs of the many.

You haven't been a good Trekkie then, have you? Or does your enthusiasm stop once the characters hit the silver screen? Okay, then. Figures.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

invoking guidance from a common deity

Back to this, eh? Notwithstanding the comments about Star Trek, do you propose that the solution is to encourage huge migrations of Buddhists to Devon, so that we can invoke Adi Buddha and put this damn tradition to rest? Obviously since you think MIGHT MAKES RIGHT (strength in numbers, etc.), that's the only solution. Again, figures.

Obstinate, obstinate, obstinate. But I'll be damned if you can prove me wrong, or make ME pray in silence. Hell no, we won't go, hell no, we won't go.

Reminds me a good bit of an old Monty Python skit. Fella walks in, says he'd like to buy an argument. Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes it ....

BAH ... baaaaaaaaaaah

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zagreus

Because He already gave you these. See those Buddhists in the council meetings?

You haven't been a good Trekkie then, have you? Or does your enthusiasm stop once the characters hit the silver screen? Okay, then. Figures.

Back to this, eh? Notwithstanding the comments about Star Trek, do you propose that the solution is to encourage huge migrations of Buddhists to Devon, so that we can invoke Adi Buddha and put this damn tradition to rest? Obviously since you think MIGHT MAKES RIGHT (strength in numbers, etc.), that's the only solution. Again, figures.

Obstinate, obstinate, obstinate. But I'll be damned if you can prove me wrong, or make ME pray in silence. Hell no, we won't go, hell no, we won't go.

Reminds me a good bit of an old Monty Python skit. Fella walks in, says he'd like to buy an argument. Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes it ....

BAH ... baaaaaaaaaaah

I didn't deserve that. I expressed my opinion. I did not imply yours was wrong. I said I thought the mayor made an error. I explained my reasons. The only one who seems to have a problem with my reasoning is...you.

[Zagreus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I didn't deserve that. I expressed my opinion. I did not imply yours was wrong. I said I thought the mayor made an error. I explained my reasons. The only one who seems to have a problem with my reasoning is...you.

I just think it's helpful to consider how things would be if the tables were turned. Walk a mile in the other man's shoes. Or try the shoe on the other foot. Could I put this a Fourth Way perhaps?

There are certainly several *traditions* that I'm no longer able to participate in, or ceremonies that are even performed (or performable), and I miss them dearly. Most of these I like to believe embodied something Sacred and real. The people attending were all united in common Purpose, that much is for sure.

I think we need to ask - What is the Purpose of a town council meeting? For what reason do the people come together?

As someone who believes strongly in the power and significance of ritual (or Ceremony), I personally feel that the tradition of the Totnes Town Council is a good one - even as it stands, or stood, or whatever. But my personal feelings don't mean a hill o' beans, if there's a greater good that needs considering.

And I would hope, that we can manage to still fix our hearts, and our minds, and even our silent Invocations, on that greater Go(o)d, and not become needlessly lost in what amounts to arguing about lip service.

Yes, I know lip service matters to some. Those three verses from Matthew - or at least two of them - have everything to do with the topic. But the 2nd of the three verses - seems to address this matter square on.

My apologies if I was a bit sarcastic. I just think this whole thread (and most of them like it), pretty well amounts to a hill o' beans. Like the Mayor said, making mountains out of molehills. And I *do* agree with him. My opinion is that he's a very wise man, and can see this nonsense for what it is.

~Zag

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zagreus

I just think it's helpful to consider how things would be if the tables were turned. Walk a mile in the other man's shoes. Or try the shoe on the other foot. Could I put this a Fourth Way perhaps?

There are certainly several *traditions* that I'm no longer able to participate in, or ceremonies that are even performed (or performable), and I miss them dearly. Most of these I like to believe embodied something Sacred and real. The people attending were all united in common Purpose, that much is for sure.

I think we need to ask - What is the Purpose of a town council meeting? For what reason do the people come together?

As someone who believes strongly in the power and significance of ritual (or Ceremony), I personally feel that the tradition of the Totnes Town Council is a good one - even as it stands, or stood, or whatever. But my personal feelings don't mean a hill o' beans, if there's a greater good that needs considering.

And I would hope, that we can manage to still fix our hearts, and our minds, and even our silent Invocations, on that greater Go(o)d, and not become needlessly lost in what amounts to arguing about lip service.

Yes, I know lip service matters to some. Those three verses from Matthew - or at least two of them - have everything to do with the topic. But the 2nd of the three verses - seems to address this matter square on.

My apologies if I was a bit sarcastic. I just think this whole thread (and most of them like it), pretty well amounts to a hill o' beans. Like the Mayor said, making mountains out of molehills. And I *do* agree with him. My opinion is that he's a very wise man, and can see this nonsense for what it is.

~Zag

Indeed, you know as well as I do that no one could survive in another man's shoes. We are each made to our own designs, and as such are unique in carrying our own burdens. No other can take our place. So your argument is mute.

He (the mayor) erred in giving in to the minority over a time held tradition by the majority. In this case the majority is Christian, like it or not. And the majority's thought means much more than a "hill o' beans". If the majority were "Buhdists" the same would hold true.

That is the problem. Not the majority of faith, but that of one faith that seems to be under fire as of late. I suspect if the mayor had half a brain he could have offered a dual ceremony of requests to the divine nature, particularly if there was a significant minority of another faith. And I'm quite certain that the Christians would have quietly observed a respectful silence while the others petitioned in their own way, of that which is greater than us all.

That after all is what respect is, no?

v/r

Joshua