Count down to all out war in the Middle Eeast?

[I, Brian]

Interesting developments -

On the one hand, a test of the new peace Abbas and Sharon are trying to build after a suicide bomb in Tel Aviv - however, news reports are suggesting a split within Islamic Jihad, with the Gaza faction denying involvement, while an apparent base in Syria claiming involvement. It's serious enough that Israel has effectively blamed Syria for the bombing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4301447.stm

Another surprise in the news is of democratic reform in Egypt, with Hosni Mubarrak suddenly asking the Egyptian Parliament to support his bid to change the Egyptian Consitution to allow multiple candidates in presidential elections:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4300039.stm

[Quahom1]

Interesting points, all!



I Brian said, "There is progress in the Middle East - but the ill-planned Iraq War is going to rumble on in its consequences."



Sacred Star said, "...the US is really the puppet until such time as there is an alternative energy source." and "...Well GOD as allowed civilizations to be wiped out before and I am sure GOD will allow it again, we co-create destruction and GOD allows us to use our free will to do it with our own hands."

Mirror in the Fog said, "...We, the regular folks who don't make decisions, just get stuck with the gas bills and the death tolls.", and "The fact that war is profitable to certain factions, and severely detrimental to the rest, is a fact."



Didymus said, "...I think that the US is in error to propose the installation of a democratic government in Iraq. The US has seriously underestimated the Arab people and their culture. By nature of their religion democracy will be difficult. From what I know government is still very interweaved with religion. Religious views and democracy don't go hand in hand as we see here in the USA", and "...I don't see an end to insurgent attacks. Those aren't just Iraqis that are attacking they are coming in from neighboring countries and they are putting aside their differences to fight for a common cause which they see as the US."



Bandit said, "...There is something different about the whole spirit of battle in this one. To tell you the honest truth, I don’t think most of them even realize what they are doing. But someone out there with power and big money knows." and "...I believe this is good insight. Allies, is just another word for who can we trust. I don’t think the U.S. (or any nation) is too big to be swallowed."



Friend said, "...The new world of the American regime have two directions, the first one to dominate the Oil resources around the world and prevent any possible future power to benefit from these resources like China or old EU (As Bush said )..." and "... the other direction is to applied something like the Marshal plan which was used to some Europe countries after War II against socialism ….., They call to political Reforms in the Middle east countries and promote American life style to be sure that the first step of the New World is under their control ." and "...and we know without any doubt that Oil is the base of any economic power ." and "...we should remember that the Nuclear Technology of what was called the Soviets Union or RSSA transmitted to many countries..."and"...the military bases in the gulf states and Iraq will help to meet this new dangerous and to make the political situations in Asia under their control."



Q says: This is my set of thoughts so far. If the United States had not lost the twin towers in 2001, to terrorists of Arabic decent, we would not be considering these thoughts today. Originally, when the towers fell, it was thought that over 80,000 people were in the buildings, and that was reported to the world. First impressions are lasting ones. Even when a week later the toll whittled down to just over 3000 casualties, the rage of the original number stuck in the subconscious mind of America. When the "war" was brought to US soil that changed things for the US and the World, irrevocably. No longer would the ocean provide a natural protection for America. No longer would the United States be naive about their thinking on how the world runs, nor how deadly it is. Even during World War I and II and Korea and Vietnam, the people of the United States considered themselves to be fighting someone else’s war. Americans considered themselves to be helping their "neighbors" against the "bad guys". America has been very good about "championing the Underdog" (arrogant in a way, yes...but true), yet the American heart was never totally in it. Now, enter reality. And welcome to the real world America. Only the real world did not expect in any way shape or form, the behemoth that is now awake.



November 2004 elections should have been a wake up call to the rest of the world. Prs Bush never changed his tune during his campaign, and was elected by 286 to 242 electoral vote margin...He also received over 55 % of the popular vote. The Legislative branch became even more dominated by the conservatives. Bush ran his platform as a "Wartime" president, and won.



It is not just the president of the United States and the power brokers that want this war. The common vote clearly indicates that the majority of Americans want it as well (in for a penny, in for a pound).



The United States will never recede back to its original borders again, I opine.



And here is a very chilling thought. The United States is solely capable of devastating the entire world. No one talks about it, but the reality is there. Some might say it would never happen...no one is crazy enough to drop the bomb...but the United States has in fact done so, not once, but twice...on real people...



I may be wrong, but I get the impression that the rest of the world wishes that the US would simply go home, and be the benign big neighbor it once use to be (the huge, albeit stupid idiot of the block that everyone liked and poked fun at, but no one took seriously).



19 men woke up the United States' anger. The US government is capitalizing on that anger.



I believe you are all correct so far. The United States is out to re-mold the world.



As my son says, the gloves have come off, and it hurts when bare knuckles connect with bone...



The world is in shock because the United States is...hurting it?!!!



v/r



Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mirrorinthefog

I don't want an apology, and I'm not out to obstruct this board.

I understood you the first time. And I think I've said what I wanted to say on the matter, whether you like the way it was presented or not. So I'll leave it at that.

I'll take that as a resounding "NO!"

v/r

Q

p.s. Obviously I didn't go ask for your post to be removed, since it was how you saw things. I can't fault that, nor did you violate any rules of the forum. You don't like me, and that is fine too. You aren't the first, nor will you be the last.

[Bandit]

Hey Q! I do see a lot of things in it but usually when I mention anything people look at me like I am nuts. I agree with your post just above the last. If the attack of the towers had never happened none of this would be going on.

IN the 80s I mentioned to several that one day the WTC would/could be destroyed by some deceitful bombing. Everyone I talked to said that it was impossible.
It was not just the WTC, it was the pentagon and another destination, Philadlephia? I thought it could have been the Sears Tower too.

I see a scared stressed world but not too scared yet. I also see the U.S. not as a dictatorship toward other countires but more like a babysitter (but not in a bad way). Everyone is too small to stop terrorism and they cannot touch it for what over 40 years? So they all sit there scared and just let it keep happening.
I remember back in the 70s when taliban went into the caves and killed over 50,000 pentecostal christians. Slaughtered them because they had bibles.
Russia could not defeat Afghanistan.

Now the U.S. I do feel is truly trying to stop the terrorism and I do not believe the U.S. are terrorsits at all. but at the same time there are other motives which are not right. Sorry, I do believe in turning the other cheek but i also believe in self defense. the U.S. is a dove nation and seeks peace. the middle east does not.
The middle East has been messed up since it started from day number one.

Growing up I always felt Russia was the enemy and it was easy. I think that was true. Today, no one knows for sure who the enemy is and that goes for just about everything, not just politics.

Do I see world peace possible? yes. but only temporary with a false sense of peace that some will believe, then, all out destruction. Not trying to be negative, but this is the way it has to be for a reason.

[Quahom1]

President Bush made a profound statement. He said, if you are for terrorists, harbor terrorists, or are terrorists, you are against US, and we will come after you.

I do not think he was speaking in jest, and now the world is beginning to understand the truth behind the cowboy from Texas, and the world does not like it.

There is speculation that the United Nations planned this type of behavior (perhaps not down to the letter), wherein the United States would act as the Police Force of the world, and the United Nations would give the United States its marching orders.

What was not expected was a president like George W. Bush, who would not go along with the orginal plan (theory, no proof).

Come to think of it, it is the world's fault that Bush is still president...(in general terms, not specifically)

Had there been no attack on US soil, Bush would have remained the bumbling backwater president the world considered him to be, and probably would not have made second term. But the man knows how to fight, and refuses to back down.

History shows that Americans in general admire that in a person, especially a leader.

The Taliban, Bandit, I'm afraid is the fault of the United States. The US backed Afghanistan resistance against the Soviet Union, but then left them to their own devices. The United States also precipitated the fall of the Shah of Iran, thus setting the stage for the current governement. The US has blundered badly in the past. Now we must put right what we made wrong, becuase trouble has come home to roost. These are the facts, and the foibles of American politics.

The United States is not a "dove" nation, and never has been. Simply look at the national seal of the United States of America. The picture says it all. An Eagle wearing the US coat of Arms (shield), with wings spread as if in flight. The face looks to the right and in the right talon is a sprig of olive branch, with 13 leaves and 13 olives (the branch of peace, by a nation that wants peace). But in the left talon are 13 arrows...ready to make war, and above the bird is the phrase "E pluribus Unum". Of the many, one.

People just never understood that...until now. They still don't believe it, but are beginning to slowly.

One of the interesting things about America, is that its union is truly united. Canada has no such union, and neither does Europe or Africa, or any other 'union', except maybe Australia, and I think the United Kingdom (but then where did America spring from eh)?

Can the US be beaten? Yes. As you said (or maybe it was Sacred), anyone can be beaten. Defeated? I don't think so. I don't have facts to back that so I'll stop here.

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

The United States is not a "dove" nation, and never has been. Simply look at the national seal of the United States of America. The picture says it all. An Eagle wearing the US coat of Arms (shield), with wings spread as if in flight. The face looks to the right and in the right talon is a sprig of olive branch, with 13 leaves and 13 olives (the branch of peace, by a nation that wants peace). But in the left talon are 13 arrows...ready to make war, and above the bird is the phrase "E pluribus Unum". Of the many, one.

Yes. I know what you are saying.

Rome and Iraq also used the eagle and look.

But if you look at the flag of the UN and of the peace flag, that is where I am going. I might be wrong but I do not recall America ever going into another Nation and fully taking that Nation by storm without a cause, after being attacked first, in an attempt to conquer it and increase its border. Like Rome and Germany who indeed made hostile effort to rule the world.
Yes, it did as it was being established and created borders for itself on the homeland but the nation was being born at that time.

In all honesty is the USA that hostile that it is not considered a dove Nation also? I am looking for some material online for this but no luck so far.

We see 2 two olive branches on the UN flag. We see a dove in the world peace flag.
Australia I believe, has been considered a dove nation. My dad was in the service also and he knows which ones are called doves, I cannot remember them all, but I do remember him speaking on this quite often.

The Middle East and parts of Europe are far from being dove nations.

I am not just speaking in symbols. Maybe the U.S. is still too young but I dont see the U.S. flag flying over Iraq which it could very well be today.

So my question to you Q, which is off topic but still...Did the USA make war for the Virgin Islands, Hawaii and Alaska? They were more or less annexed. Right?

I dont really claim know a lot about all this, just trying to make conversation.

[Bandit]

President Bush made a profound statement. He said, if you are for terrorists, harbor terrorists, or are terrorists, you are against US, and we will come after you.

I do not think he was speaking in jest, and now the world is beginning to understand the truth behind the cowboy from Texas, and the world does not like it.

Yes this is right. He was not jesting at all. The world could not stop it. Now the US is trying to and everyone is complaining. Like I said before. Babysitting, because the middle east governments dont want to take control of there own problems and the other Nations are not strong enough to do it on there own. Almost like they have bred terrorism into there own people on purpose and they like it that way.


One other thing...Saddam needed to be exiled whether there were nuclear weapons or not, for the simple reason of his threats. That man had no power and ran a tiny dictatorship, going from many palaces to a hole in the ground.
The World did feel threatened by him because he spoke like a big bully but had no power at all. But we will see in the trials ahead.

Now I am voicing my opinion!!!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Yes. I know what you are saying.

Rome and Iraq also used the eagle and look....

Good evening Bandit,

Germany also used the Eagle (******* Eagle), and Poland used a double headed Eagle. Rome and Iraq's Eagles looked to the left (******* Eagles), and neither had symbols of peace in one grip and symbols of war in the other. An Eagle is not a dove, no matter how one slices the pie. But Eagles are by nature peaceful, until agitated beyond measure. They are lone creatures by design. They want to be left alone, and tend to leave others alone, until agitated.

Originally Posted by Bandit

So my question to you Q, which is off topic but still...Did the USA make war for the Virgin Islands, Hawaii and Alaska? They were more or less annexed. Right?

Alaska? No, Secratary of Interior Seward bought Alaska from the Russians for $7 million dollars in the latter 1800s. Alaska's purchase was called "Seward's Folly" and "Seward's Ice box. It was considered a total waste of the tax payer's money. Then gold was found... The purchase of Alaska was not an annex. Alaska became an US territory. In 1959, Alaska became the 49th state of the Union.

Hawaii? No, the British brought decimation to the Hawain Islands visa vie Captain Cook (not intentionally). The United States picked up what was left of the Hawian people in the 1800s and kept them from extinction (Today only about 10,000 true Hawains still live). Again, I don't think Hawaii can truly be called an annex (others may argue that point), as we didn't fight the natives for their land. The Queen of Hawaii stepped down and (arguably) allowed the US to make Hawaii a territory. In 1960, Hawaii became the 50th state of the Union.

Virgian Islands (US)? No, After intense labor riots by the natives of the islands against the Danish rulers, the United States in 1917, purchased them for $25 million in gold in an effort to improve military positioning during critical times of World War I. St. Croix, St. Thomas and St. John became the US Virgin Islands.
While conditions improved, change came slowly and frustrations brewed. Residents felt deceived when they were not granted American citizenship immediately following the transfer and disappointment also existed in that the islands were run by Naval administrators and appointed officials.

The Military and the Interior Departments managed the territory until the passage of the Organic Act in 1936. Today the USVI is a U.S. territory, run by an elected governor. The territory is under the jurisdiction of the president of the United States of America and residents are American citizens.

Eh, you forgot about Guam, Rota,Tinian and Puerto Rico...

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Yes this is right. He was not jesting at all. The world could not stop it. Now the US is trying to and everyone is complaining. Like I said before. Babysitting, because the middle east governments dont want to take control of there own problems and the other Nations are not strong enough to do it on there own. Almost like they have bred terrorism into there own people on purpose and they like it that way.


One other thing...Saddam needed to be exiled whether there were nuclear weapons or not, for the simple reason of his threats. That man had no power and ran a tiny dictatorship, going from many palaces to a hole in the ground.
The World did feel threatened by him because he spoke like a big bully but had no power at all. But we will see in the trials ahead.

Now I am voicing my opinion!!!

Weeeelllll, prior to the United front during the early 1900s the lands of the Arab (or Arabian), had not banded together in a concerted effort for a thousand or so years. During the time of the Crusades the Arabs were only beaten back once, out of 11 campaigns. The rest were routes or stalemates. Spain (for example) nearly became totally Muslim (The Moors had a great hand in this).

I'm not certain what happened next, but it is almost as if the Arab warrior lost heart and retreated back home (certainly not due to being defeated in battle, as they were not). Shortly after, the Arab world broke up into the traditional small villages and what not. Life went on as before, with interfaction bickering and such. In 1948 however, a new leader rose and he was from the old world. His name was Arafat. Britian broke up the lands into sections and new countries were formed, while old countries' borders were changed. Many were left as refugees...and Israel came back into being...the rest is history.

Sadaam and his Iraq, had the 4th largest and most powerful military in the world prior to 1991 (that can be found in Janes). Sadaam hid in many holes in the ground for over a year, and we found him by shear luck (and a quick eye of a private). What makes you think the weapons he had aren't still buried in the ground somewhere? Iraq is the size of Texas...that is alot of sand to sift through. The military is patient, the media is not Bandit. Instant results?

Sadaam started the Gulf war in 1988...did you know that? He ordered two Exocet missles fired at the USS Ward in the Persian Gulf. They both struck home, but the Ward survived (barely). The US did not immediately react, but then we never do...

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

Eh, you forgot about Guam, Rota,Tinian and Puerto Rico...

ok, I cannot sleep you have thinking about all this. so the U.S. does not make hostile attacks unless provoked. So if people cannot see that, then they well, they just cannot see.
I will look for the material on the dove nations for you. just give me awhile.

Sadaam started the Gulf war in 1988...did you know that? He ordered two Exocet missles fired at the USS Ward in the Persian Gulf. They both struck home, but the Ward survived (barely). The US did not immediately react, but then we never do...

yes. it really should have been taken care of then, but there must be a reason why they waited. it is true the U.S. never does react immediately. wise as serpants gentle as doves? maybe?
sure there could still be nuclear weapons in the ground or materials transfered to a neighboring country. hard to say. My point with him is, he did not have the power that he tried to make people think even if he was 4th in weapons. He was too easily brought down.
I think this is really heading toward clearing the path for the Kings of the North to come down again. (not sure which ones that will be included in that.)

....And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

ok, I cannot sleep you have thinking about all this. so the U.S. does not make hostile attacks unless provoked. So if people cannot see that, then they well, they just cannot see.
I will look for the material on the dove nations for you. just give me awhile.

yes. it really should have been taken care of then, but there must be a reason why they waited. it is true the U.S. never does react immediately. wise as serpants gentle as doves? maybe?
sure there could still be nuclear weapons in the ground or materials transfered to a neighboring country. hard to say. My point with him is, he did not have the power that he tried to make people think even if he was 4th in weapons. He was too easily brought down.
I think this is really heading toward clearing the path for the Kings of the North to come down again. (not sure which ones that will be included in that.)

....And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished....

The United States did not come from the sea, rather from the ground. The US is the second beast (with baby horns). (according to some scholars of the Bible).

Revelations states that this Nation can go one of two ways...it is all up to us (as Sacred would say).

But really Dear Bandit, we must get back to the thread

And you did say you were heading off to bed...

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

I think this is really heading toward clearing the path for the Kings of the North to come down again. (not sure which ones that will be included in that.)

remember you asked about COUNTDOWN to all out war in the middle east? that is what I mean.
i see the US kind of preparing this as for more battle as you have questioned. I think the baby horns is the false prophets but is used to see it like you mention.
not sure, if many see how political and religious powers are working and fighting together at the same time, but have there own separate voice.
this battle is not just about politics you know.

we will just have to watch and wait

[didymus]

Ok, I need to get this off of my chest. The original intent was to track down Osama Bin Laden. We invaded Afghanistan and this was certainly justifiable. But somehow we all fell asleep here in the USA. We completely left our mission in Afghanistan and invaded Iraq on suspicion of WMD. United Nations told us repeatedly to wait because there was not enough evidence.

We were supposed to respect the rules of this union just like all the other countries were supposed to. We chose not to wait and made a preeminant strike. As far as I know if any other member of the United Nations did this we would have stepped in to stop them and they would have been labled a rogue country. Think about it.

So we invade Iraq make it all the way to Baghdad and can not locate WMD. So we say, well, he was a dictator and the world is better off without him. This is true but it doesn't erase the fact that we completely ignored United Nation suggestions. We are held to a very high standard on the global scale and we completely fanned our nose at everyone and did what we wanted. This to me was unacceptable and I think there will be long term consequences.

So now nobody even mentions Osama. It's almost as though we forgot about him if that is even possible. Does anybody realize this or is it just me?

There is a spiritual law in effect called reaping and sewing. This law is as reliable as the law of gravity. It doesn't always happen immediately. Look at the slave trade. The USA reped what it sewed 200 years later. Now there are blacks all over the country that are still living in poverty and unable to rise above the oppression( imagined and real)that they and their ancestors lived. God only knows what will be reaped from Iraq. Oh,and for those wondering about Saddam yeah he did some dispicable things and was going to reap what he sewed whether we went in or not.

[Bandit]

sure, but as long as Osama keeps rearing his ugly head from his cave and making more threats, they will find him.
you have to know how the enemy operates.
everything is falling in line for a reason.

[didymus]

Time will tell.