Covenant Breaker website?

[DynoMight]

It seems like a sign of weakness in the Baha'i world view that if someone actively dissents that they would become so spiritually "poisonous" that one shouldn't even breath the same air as them. It seems that if there were less assumption and arbitrary canon that the Baha'i religion could stand on such firm ground as to be able to engage dissent istead of shutting it down or shunting it.

[Promethium]

Originally Posted by DynoMight

It seems like a sign of weakness in the Baha'i world view that if someone actively dissents that they would become so spiritually "poisonous" that one shouldn't even breath the same air as them. It seems that if there were less assumption and arbitrary canon that the Baha'i religion could stand on such firm ground as to be able to engage dissent istead of shutting it down or shunting it.

That certainly is a valid opinion. Although oxygen does not physically contain poisonous covenant breaker residue(see quote in previous post). Added commentary will be bracketed and italicisized.

dissent–verb (used without object)
1.to differ in sentiment or opinion, esp. from the majority; withhold assent; disagree (often fol. by from): Two of the justices dissented from the majority decision.
[This definition of dissent technically is allowed. Bahais are also free to express themselves. Especially using a process called consultation where importance is placed on the ideas being discussed and not the personal identities involved.]

2.to disagree with the methods, goals, etc., of a political party or government; take an opposing view.

[Bahais claim no political involvement besides voting. Although opposing ideas can be expressed through proper channels. Decisions of the administration can be appealed.]

3.to disagree with or reject the doctrines or authority of an established church.
[One probably would no longer consider themselves a Bahai if they disagreed with the fundamental tenets of the Bahai covenant and doctrine]

–noun
4.difference of sentiment or opinion.
["unity in diversity" is a commonly used expression among Bahais]
6.disagreement with the philosophy, methods, goals, etc., of a political party or government.


7.separation from an established church, esp. the Church of England; nonconformity.
[The point is there are certain methods and channels through which "dissent" can be expressed in the Bahai Faith which differ from western methods.]

""The more the conscience of man develops, the more will his heart be free and his soul attain unto happiness. In the religion of God, there is freedom of thought because God, alone, controls the human conscience, but this freedom should not go beyond courtesy. In the religion of God, there is no freedom of action outside the law of God.'"
-Abdu'l-Baha

The Bahai belief in freedom is centered around "submission unto God's commandments" and the commandments are safeguarded by (Founder, Authorized Interpreters, UHJ,). Part of the duty of the Universal House of Justice is to allow differing opinions to flourish while maintaining the unity of the Bahai Faith and its laws. Dissent should be expressed with the intention to find the truth of those commandments. When dissent seeks to undermine the authority of the very thing it wishes to propagate, the system falls apart. Especially when that Authority is the scriptually appointed safeguard. It isn't arbitrary at all. In fact I think you would do better to call it too restrictive. Although Bahais argue this is to prevent a valid schism and is the only tenable way to prevent sects from forming. Not to be irreverant towards the Bahai Faith, but the point is when you choose to play a game you have to abide by the rules, otherwise your cheating.

Honestly my friend, not to call you out or anything, I think the real reason why your getting "huffy and puffy" about this is because of popeyes comment (paraphrase) that matrixism is just something created by someone who was bored. Dont worry about it. You have a free will, and you are allowed to express yourself how you wish, matrixism is a modern reflection of the eternal metaphysical truths emanating from a non-physical reality. While Bahais wouldnt agree with the use of psychedelic drugs, Im sure they can learn to be appreciative of the websites(Matrixism) citation of Abdul-Baha's work and the link to Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. The myths of the past that symbolized and affirmed our values have lost their meaning in a modern world. The movie Matrix is a new mythology and reflection of mans eternal quest for spiritual truth and perfect well being/enhanced powers.
Although not a mythology, the Bahai Faith has its own heroes in the stories of the Dawn-Breakers. Normal people like us transformed by the power of Divine into immortal heros and champions of an Eternal Cause. Lets focus on our common quest and not drag each other into the abyss of fault finding and petty criticism. For this is a New Day and a New Age where all have an equal chance to reflect the Glory of God.

[Promethium]

I apologize for using "huffy and puffy" although at the time I found it light hearted and entertaining I could see how it could be perceived to be offensive. If offended please replace it with "angry".

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by DynoMight

Now Scott you're going way off the deep end here. I never claimed that shunting Baha'i dissenters was equivalent to the Holocost or the R'wandan murders. You just made that stuff up to create the illusion of a flame war going on. I can't imagine how I could have led you to believe that but if I somehow did then I apologize.

But to clarify:

What I did mean to get across to you was that if a state were predominatly Baha'i to declare someone a covenant breaker and shunt them would amount to discrimination. Look at it this way according to law in the USA men's clubs must admit women because excluding them from these clubs would limit their ability to make social contacts that could be helpful in bussiness and other endeavors. Mind you this is considered significant discrimination yet the scope of these clubs are very limited both in location and the amount of time spent there. Can you imagine how significant the effect of discrimination would be if everyone were to avoid contact with you everywhere and at all times outside of a school or work setting? That is what would happen to a "covenant breaker" in a predominantly Baha'i community.

As for the stuff about Baha'u'llah, Islam and Mason Remey;

Your Baha'is might see it as Mason Remey broke the covenant by taking up the Guardianship while the Baha'is who follow Mason remey see it as he preserved the Baha'i covenant. This is completely analogous to how Muslims see it that Baha'u'llah broke to covenant of Muhammud while Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah elevated it. That is why I say that the Baha'is are being hypocritical.

That was as back-handed an apology as I've ever seen.

Only Baha`u'llah had the power to appoint an Interpreter and a Center of the Covenant.
Only Abdu'l Baha had the power to create and appoint the Guardianship.

Only Shoghi Effendi had the power to appoint a second Guardian.

Mason Remey did NOT have the power to appoint anyone to anything. He did not have the power to declare he had the power.

Therefore he broke the covenant. He put his own ego above the good of the Cause and promoted disunity to the point that he became a spiritual miasma to all around him. This is amply demonstrated by the behavior of those who claimed to follow him.

Mason Remey and Those who Followed Him for more information "Charles Mason Remey and Those Who Followed Him."

Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

Prometheum...

Welcome to Comparative Religion and the Baha'i Board!

I hope you feel welcome here.

- Art

[DynoMight]

Originally Posted by Promethium

Honestly my friend, not to call you out or anything, I think the real reason why you are [critcizing the baha'i religion] is because of popeyes comment (paraphrase) that [M]atrixism is just something created by someone who was bored.

You are partly correct Popeysays did in fact make a rude and uneccessary attack on another religion that being Matrixism. But I'm not upset by any means. I am just trying to point out that Matrixism stands on equally firm ground as the baha'i religion.

If you read the Matrixism website I think that it is apparent that Pathists don't believe in the movie as mythology but rather as metaphor or analogy. I think that there is a difference.

Also I disagree that the baha'i religion with you when you say that the baha'i religion is not based on mythology. Baha'is do believe in a virgin Mary afterall. They also have quite a bit of writing that says that baha'u'llah is omnipotent. Paraphrasing: "I baha'u'llah could change all of this creation and even end your existence right now but it is only by wisdom and mercy that I don't."

Again referring to the passage I quoted from your last post; I would glady cease pointing out the inconsistentcies of the baha'i religion, recognize it as a valid religion and even begin capitalizing the word "baha'i" if baha'is were to give equal respect to other religions including Matrixism.

Is it a deal?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by DynoMight

You are partly correct Popeysays did in fact make a rude and uneccessary attack on another religion that being Matrixism. But I'm not upset by any means. I am just trying to point out that Matrixism stands on equally firm ground as the baha'i religion.

If you read the Matrixism website I think that it is apparent that Pathists don't believe in the movie as mythology but rather as metaphor or analogy. I think that there is a difference.

Also I disagree that the baha'i religion with you when you say that the baha'i religion is not based on mythology. Baha'is do believe in a virgin Mary afterall. They also have quite a bit of writing that says that baha'u'llah is omnipotent. Paraphrasing: "I baha'u'llah could change all of this creation and even end your existence right now but it is only by wisdom and mercy that I don't."

Again referring to the passage I quoted from your last post; I would glady cease pointing out the inconsistentcies of the baha'i religion, recognize it as a valid religion and even begin capitalizing the word "baha'i" if baha'is were to give equal respect to other religions including Matrixism.

Is it a deal?

The quote (in RED above) you attribute to Baha`u'llah does not exist in any of His writings, nor in any of Abdu'l Baha's, nor Shoghi Effendi's. I just ran it through "OCean's" Google search of the writings-it's a misquote, not even a paraphrase.

As to the virgin birth of Jesus, Christianity upholds it, The Qur'an upholds it and the Baha`i Writings uphold it, but we believe that God "willed" it to be, not that any of God's sperm or DNA was involved. God has no gender nor physical form, so by Baha`i understanding it is impossible for him to be the 'genetic' father of Jesus.

"1637. Christ -- Virgin Birth of
"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In the light of what Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."
(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)
1638. Miracles are Always Possible
"Again with regard to your question relative to the birth of Jesus; he wishes me to inform you that there is nothing further he can add to the explanation he have you in his previous communication regarding this point. One thing, however, he wishes again to bring to your attention, namely that miracles are always possible, even though they do not constitute a regular channel whereby God reveals His power to mankind. To reject miracles on the ground that they imply a breach of the laws of nature is a very shallow, well-nigh a stupid argument, inasmuch as God Who is the Author of the universe can, in His Wisdom and Omnipotence, bring any change, no matter how temporary, in the operation of the laws which He Himself has created.
"The Teachings do not tell us of any miraculous birth besides that of Jesus."
(From a letter dated February 27, 1938 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)"
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489)

I really have no interest in "Matrixism" at all, other than where it misrepresents the Baha`i Faith.

Regards,
Scott

[lunamoth]

Hi All,

I know this topic can be quite sensitive and I would like to remind everyone that this is the Baha'i Forum. While it is appropriate to ask questions and discuss the Baha'i Faith in this forum, I might suggest the Comparative Religion Board for discussions ranging outside the scope of interested questions and discussion.

Originally Posted by COC

CR is intended to be a useful reference resource for people looking to find out more about specific religions.

In that regard, CR employs a “walled garden” approach to the individual faith boards.

This means that the individual faith boards are for persons of that faith to discuss faith issues in the context of their faith, and invite interested questions and discussions from persons outside of that faith about it.

CR does not support direct attacks on any faith, and suitable critical evaluations about any faith needs to be made on a more neutral board, such as the Comparative Studies, or Politics and Society, if it involves critical discussion of political events.

[DynoMight]

Originally Posted by Promethium

Honestly my friend, not to call you out or anything, I think the real reason why you are [critcizing the baha'i religion] is because of popeyes comment (paraphrase) that [M]atrixism is just something created by someone who was bored.

You are partly correct Popeysays did in fact make a rude and uneccessary attack on another religion that being Matrixism. But I'm not upset by any means. I am just trying to point out that Matrixism stands on equally firm ground as the baha'i religion.

If you read the Matrixism website I think that it is apparent that Pathists don't believe in the movie as mythology but rather as metaphor or analogy. I think that there is a difference.

Also I disagree that the baha'i religion with you when you say that the baha'i religion is not based on mythology. Baha'is do believe in a virgin Mary afterall. They also have quite a bit of writing that says that baha'u'llah is omnipotent. Paraphrasing: "I baha'u'llah could change all of this creation and even end your existence right now but it is only by wisdom and mercy that I don't."

Again referring to the passage I quoted from your last post; I would glady cease pointing out the inconsistentcies of the baha'i religion, recognize it as a valid religion and even begin capitalizing the word "baha'i" if baha'is were to give equal respect to other religions including Matrixism.

Is it a deal?

[Popeyesays]

""I baha'u'llah could change all of this creation and even end your existence right now but it is only by wisdom and mercy that I don't."
"

This isn't even a paraphrase.

It is a misrepresentation.

Kindly cite the quotation, or don't use it.

Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

Dynomight..

Paraphrasing:

"I baha'u'llah could change all of this creation and even end your existence right now but it is only by wisdom and mercy that I don't."

That's a very rough paraphrasing indeed...It's so "rough" I would urge you to supply where it came from...

- Art

[DynoMight]

I don't have any of the baha'i writings handy but I believe there are words to that effect in "The Book of Certitude" and/or "Epistle to the Son of the Wolf".

That aside how about our deal?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by DynoMight

I don't have any of the baha'i writings handy but I believe there are words to that effect in "The Book of Certitude" and/or "Epistle to the Son of the Wolf".

That aside how about our deal?

You don't have any of the writings handy, but you are willing to tell us what they say?

The quotation appears in neither the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, nor does it appear in the Kitab'i Iqan.

Not only have I googled the whole quotation you provided but all the constituent phrases which you attribute to Baha`u'llah.

If you're not willing to admit your error, why should I have any interest in any 'deal.'

If you want access to the baha`i Writings you can go to trueseeker.com and search on the web, or you can download Ocean which provides the sacred texts of the Baha`i Faith, Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Jainism. If you do not have a fast connection you can request a disk, if you don't want to pay the cost of the disk and mailing, it will be sent to you at the expense of the publisher.

Right now, you're talking through your hat, and don't want to admit it.

Regards,
Scott

[DynoMight]

Popeye, you can't do a search for paraphrasing. It's not a quote. Anyhow, I am ceratin (no pun intended) that I have read words to that effect. I don't know what you want me to say. Do you want me to say that I never read such a thing even though I am quite certain that I did?

I have read "The Epistle to the Son of the Wolf" twice and "The Book of Certidude" once. I have no desire to re-read them.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by DynoMight

Popeye, you can't do a search for paraphrasing. It's not a quote. Anyhow, I am ceratin (no pun intended) that I have read words to that effect. I don't know what you want me to say. Do you want me to say that I never read such a thing even though I am quite certain that I did?

I have read "The Epistle to the Son of the Wolf" twice and "The Book of Certidude" once. I have no desire to re-read them.

The absolute closest I can come by searching phrases (two words together at a time that are characteristic of the misquote you use) is this, I will append a citation so you can look it up yourself in context.

"Praise be unto Thee, O my God! Thou art He Who by a word of His mouth hath revolutionized the entire creation, and by a stroke of His pen hath divided Thy servants one from another. I bear witness, O my God, that through a word spoken by Thee in this Revelation all created things were made to expire, and through yet another word all such as Thou didst wish were, by Thy grace and bounty, endued with new life."
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 42)

While this bears some textual resemblance to your misquote, the intent is entirely different.

One more thing that I might point out is that quote marks NEVER go around a paraphrase. Quote marks make a claim to accuracy that paraphrase just ain't got.

Regards,
Scott
.