Creationism, Intelligent Design, Evolution or .... what?

[17th Angel]

There are only -two- options in my view... It's simply either chance or it is design, lets look at it from chance....

So for life to spontaneously flourish and all this life to be here for us to witness.... So what is life/creation? I shall keep this simple as I myself am simple.... Life is a mass of atoms combined with protein molecules... The chances of this(probability) Of atoms and molecules gathering and forming to create just one protein molecule has the probability of 1 in 10-113 (which looks like this: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000 [113 zeros.])

That is more than the estimated amount of atoms in the universe... :\

Remeber I said that is for ONE protein molecule..... Obviously you, I, life consists of more than just one protein molecule.... It takes thousands and thousands.... for a single cell to operate and maintain itself...

So, the CHANCE of them all coming together to create life via chance... The odds on that are 1 in 10-40,000 (that is a number one followed by 40,000 zeros.. Worry not I won't type that one out.)

So, for life to be chance?.... You a gambling man?

Wait... That is just to create life... So lets say chance created life.... Now we must sustain this life..... So again as this is chance it is all down to chance sustaining it.... Lets have a lil peek..

Freeman dyson is known for making it known that the force between nucleons (the protons and neutrons of atoms, call it nuclear force.) were the smallest amount stribger, this universe aas we kow it would be devoid of hydrogen.... (so?)

Well, hyrdogen "feeds" stars.... Our sun is a star... Without our sun, there simply would be no life. Also you may know of H2o? Water? Hyrdogen and 2 part oxygen... Well there would be no water either, there simply would be no life. Ok... so we tip this balance that way.. WHOOPS! No life, all dead... What if we slightly tip the balance the other way? So instead of stonger, lets say it is just slightly weaker... An atom couldn't devlop passed a simple hydrogen atom there would be no room or posability for heavier atoms.... So chance seems good at balancing and maintaining... Almost like "chance" is organised...

Ok so lets see how esle chance balances and maintains such a vast and "unpredictable" universe.... I've spoken of Protons, and I have also spoken of neutrons.. Remeber your science classes at school? YUP! Now electrons....

So how does chance deal with electrons? How are electrons important? Electrons (remeber keeping this simple lol) Make a force known as electormagnetic force. This is what "motivates" electrons. It is a very balanced part, like a fine engine of a sports car, so on the balance if they are not balanced just right and are weaker? What happens? We find ourselves with unstable atoms, certainly way to unstable for fission... (Fission by the way lol, isn't a word I made up.. Honest, it is a process of spliting an atom, to from more than one atom, it is basically a process when the neutrons of an atom enter the nucleus (HQ, brain) of the atom.) And if the balance was too strong? The electrons wouldn't be shared between atoms.. so take my H2o for example.. Not happening... It cannot share... You can have a hydrogen atom sure, and an oxygen atom... But not H2o... Get me?

So I look at these FACTS, which they are... And I then look at this (in slightly more detail than typed here lol) and it all comes down to the chance or design..... I'll side with design, time and time again.

so yeah sorry about the long post on an old thread, was kind of bored...

[17th Angel]

*delete..... You can see my top one right??? If so this was a multipost... I had to recover it...*

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Alex P

There are only -two- options in my view... It's simply either chance or it is design, lets look at it from chance....


So, for life to be chance?.... You a gambling man?


So I look at these FACTS, which they are... And I then look at this (in slightly more detail than typed here lol) and it all comes down to the chance or design..... I'll side with design, time and time again.

so yeah sorry about the long post on an old thread, was kind of bored...

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
~Albert Einstein

[17th Angel]

lol thats one smart fellow.

[wil]

I believe it was designed to happen by chance.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by wil

I believe it was designed to happen by chance.

Hmm...
YouTube - What is quantum tunneling?

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
~Albert Einstein

As though means it's not really that way.

Einstein was a theoretical physicist living in a theoretical universe, it seems.

[Tao_Equus]

Alex,

If this was meant as bait I'm not biting

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

As though means it's not really that way.

Einstein was a theoretical physicist living in a theoretical universe, it seems.

It would seem that he was referring to attitude...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Alex,

If this was meant as bait I'm not biting

Bait? Tis just a discussion.... If you have an opinion feel free to view it.

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
~Albert Einstein

Wonder inherent to both in boundless capacity.............

- c -

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Bait? Tis just a discussion.... If you have an opinion feel free to view it.

ok

If you really want to get some handle on the chemistry of particle physics then a good start is SG's link to Quantum Tunnelling.
10s of 1000s of tons of carbon rich material carrying measurably significant amounts of left handed amino acids, the building blocks of life, fall on Earth every year and have been doing so since the Earth first started to form. To say, like the creationists do, that the complex chemistry of life cannot have happened by chance on Earth using mathematical models as proof is nothing but an effort to bamboozle their audience with what seems like significant information but is meaningless drivel. All the chemistry was here, created in the depths of space, and capable given the right conditions of transforming into life as we know it. How do we know it was capable? Because we are here.
Reading and watching the video lectures of the leading advocates of ID/Creationism is for me the most damning proof that it is all nonsense. In point after point they deliberately skew, confuse, mislead, misinterpret and outright lie about basic principles and observed phenomena. The methods and the careful structuring of their language leads me to the conclusion that they themselves KNOW they are talking bollocks. It is the most devious, underhand and immoral campaign on reason within the Church today and if I had my way I would have them all rounded up and jailed for deliberate fraud. Fraudulent claims may be the bread and butter of the religions but these people are attempting to, and in many cases succeeding in, dumbing down the population to the point where the faculty of reason will be lost to a generation. The right wing leadership of the Churches advocating ID, and pushing it like crack dealers on the children, are overtly racist, nationalist and supremacist. It is one weapon in their arsenal to control the every thought of their flock. They do not care that ID is bull, they KNOW ID is bull, but they need an all powerful creator whom they speak for , and that is what it is all about.

Evolution is reactive. When something in an organisms environment changes organisms adapt to survive and prosper in the changed conditions. Those that cannot become extinct. We can study the whole evolution of our species just by watching the layered development of the brain in a growing foetus. It starts off as a simple formless mass of cells, then an invertebrate brain, then a reptilian brain, then a basic mammalian brain, then a primate brain before beginning to form the distinctive front lobe and cortex of the modern human brain. Like layers in an onion we can see the whole of our evolutionary history develop. ID has it we were plonked down in the Garden of Eden perfect in every respect. That God designed and made us in his image. Well then God is indeed a blind watchmaker then. For look at the human eye, its a terrible bit of design. 60% of the world population is born with some eye defect and as they age this climbs to near 100% of people have poor eyesight. We can easily study the development of the human eye from a few simple photoreceptor cells to its current complex lensed construction and know that a decent designer could do a far better job. Or the pain modern woman must endure in childbirth compared to the vast majority of organisms because the adaptive changes required for easier birth would leave her hip joints so deformed she would be unable to walk. Again absolutely abysmal 'intelligent' design. A thought out design would have a womans sex organs on the front of her belly.

If everything was designed it would remain as it was. But it does not. ID proponents say we have not 'observed' evolution happen. Thats just a blatant lie. In fruit fly experiments we can watch the evolution of unique characteristics in a matter of weeks. Evolution is reactive. It is far from perfect but does give us amazing diversity and thus survivability of life itself. The very first organisms to multiply on our planet had to learn diversity fast. Natural mutations are inevitable, no two things are identical if you look closely enough. If it was all 'created' then we would not see such diversity as we do.

The only thing left to do with the creationists is have hem rounded up and tried for fraud because as I say, I have listened to them and their careful language is deliberately fraudulent. This, IMHO, is the only debate worth having on creationism, when are we gona lynch the liars.

tao

[17th Angel]

See... Was that hard lol.

Question, obviously you believe not in design... So how did it all come about? I know you are going with it devlops and so on... but from what? I really like to see from that sides thoughts on how it all started...

Loving the phrase "bull" right now aintcha

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Alex P

See... Was that hard lol.

Question, obviously you believe not in design... So how did it all come about? I know you are going with it devlops and so on... but from what? I really like to see from that sides thoughts on how it all started...

Loving the phrase "bull" right now aintcha

No, my 2 Questions first. If there is a 'creator', what created it? And if it 'created' all this , some 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stellar systems that we know of, why did he create just 1 man to inhabit it, then as an afterthought take a spare rib and create him a mate? Do you not see how preposterously bad logic that is? It is frankly insane.

Life is a rather unusual chemical process that requires optimum stable conditions to flourish as we know it. The basic chemicals to get it started saturate the known universe. From the Murchison meteorite, to spectral analysis of distant stellar nurseries we find an abundance of the chemicals the creationists say cannot form by chance on Earth. It is a lie. It is bull**** and I can make no apology for using that word. It is anti-truth, deceit, crap and any other similar expletive you care to use. And I seriously object to it, with anger, because its proponents know it to be crap. It is filth, intellectual pornography of the basest kind, the equivalent of child rape when taken into schools.

tao

[Ciel]

Maybe God couldn't afford another planet the same as this one......

- c -