Cultural Judaism

[Phil Alexander]

There is a type of Judaism called cultural Judaism. I am aware that it is to do with a personal view of the Scriptures and that you do not necessarily have to belive in G-D to be a cultural Jew.


I was wondering if someone could clarify what cultural Judaism is and as a separate point I was wondering what the implications could be for a religion if you can be a memeber of it without believing in G-D.

[bananabrain]

whenever i meet people that argue for cultural judaism they tend to be the sort of people that think that eating bagels and liking woody allen or klezmer are a cultural system. or, indeed, a lot of secular israelis, although they wouldn't have any truck with such labels. on the serious "folklore" front one could argue that reconstructionists are doing cultural judaism - religion as the culture of the jewish people, as it were. anyway, it tends to be the sort of people (apart from reconstructionists) who wouldn't know traditional judaism if it bit them on the bum.

it also depends on one's perspective - you must remember that one can be a member of the religion without being a *practicing* or believing member of it simply by virtue of birth and ethnicity; that's why these things arise. i'd call it "default identity", in the same way that most british people buy a christmas tree or easter eggs even though they wouldn't consider themselves christians. in that sense, any non-traditional or dissenting religious view is taking "a personal view of the scriptures".

however, when "cultural judaism" demands to be taken seriously as a *religious* option as opposed to a cultural option i reach for my custard pie, or perhaps it should be my builder's cubit. the point is really that "cultural judaism" is so woolly and undefineable that one doesn't really have to be a "member" of it. anyone can just say 'ooh, i have jews in my family a few generations back so i'm going to eat a lot more chopped liver'. big deal if you ask me. it's like when the JC (that's the jewish chronicle) gets particularly interested in people like nigella lawson, despite the fact that they have virtually nothing jewish about them. one might say they're jewish enough for the media - or, indeed jewish enough for antisemites!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[simpletoremember]

Cultural Judaism is not Judaism. If you are only Jewish because we have some nice customs this will not last a generation beyond yourself. Look around at the intermarriage rates and the lack of interest in Judaism. If Judaism is nothing more than a cultural then... I am not interested. But, if Judaism is real and G-d once contacted the entire nation of the Jews and gave a Torah then we are talking about something entirely different. Right?

[dauer]

Simple, I'd say there's a bit of grey area in between those two poles.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

STR -

judaism is complex, difficult and challenging. attempts to make it "simple" are not only misleading but can be dangerous. look, i'm not against kiruv (outreach work) and many organisations are doing really great work in the community. however, your approach is unsubtle, monolithic and unlikely to work.

assertion a: "cultural judaism is not judaism"

you would also presumably argue that reform, conservative, etc are not judaism either. if you're coming from a "torah judaism" standpoint i understand, but if your aim is to get people to come round to your way of thinking, it is quite simply ineffective. what you seem to fail to understand is that from the standpoint of people to the 'left' of mainstream orthodoxy, "torah judaism" (a horrid, self-serving title) is a *flavour* - one 'way' of being jewish amongst a plethora of options. it's not a question for them of "this is right and everything else is wrong". if you really want to understand this issue properly and understand where the difficulties really lie you should read jonathan sacks' excellent book "one people?" where he goes into this issue properly and gives it the correct attention. giving people "the answer" and saying it loudly only works on the sort of people who are looking for "the answer" and are really pleased you've given it to them because then they don't have to think for themselves any more. this is why ba'alei teshuvah have become figures of ridicule in some circles - including some frum ones.

proof 1: "If you are only Jewish because we have some nice customs this will not last a generation beyond yourself. Look around at the intermarriage rates and the lack of interest in Judaism."

OK, yes, i agree with the first bit of that - after all i am a religiously observant-ish jew myself for this very reason. however, i know many third and fourth-generation "cultural jews", so one can remain unconvinced, although as far as i am aware the statistics agree with you. what you have failed to understand, though, is that religious judaism - in other words Torah and mitzvot - simply don't make themselves attractive enough to compete with the other things out there in the "ideas market". judaism is *hard*. it is *complex*. that is why we make conversion so difficult. conning people into a sort of motherhood-and-apple-pie simplistic version of orthodoxy is something that won't work on the vast majority of people. don't forget that these guys you're talking to have mostly been to university and their jewish education probably stopped at 13 if it even got that far. that means that their view of judaism is a child's view - and probably one of some old guy with a beard telling them about stuff they weren't allowed to do. compare that with the amazing stuff they have learned in the secular world. if judaism is to compete as a belief-system it has to compete on a level of *ideas*. na'aseh ve'nishma is an approach that is completely counterintuitive to someone educated in the secular world. would it not therefore be better to engage people through things they're already interested in and show them how the culture that they are interested in has a religious foundation? would it not be more convincing as a "lifestyle choice" (urgh, that phrase) if the people "selling" it were people you wanted to emulate? people who obviously were intelligent and didn't reject modernity outright? you seem to have forgotten that one of the reasons that aryeh kaplan z"l was so successful was that he was *also* a nuclear physicist with a PhD - not a dogmatic mediaevalist.

But, if Judaism is real and G!D once contacted the entire nation of the Jews and gave a Torah then we are talking about something entirely different. Right?

right. but that is still an IF even if, like me, you believe it. it's a belief. and beliefs have to make their believer feel good, not foolish. they have to be able to stand up to questioning and critical examination. i believe (with perfect faith, too) that judaism can stand up to this. it has stood up to it for me. judaism is a *process* not a system of "brownie points". you simply cannot take the "proofing" approach that worked well in the kuzari and expect it to impress a modern critical thinker. what *will* impress people is realising what a depth of thought goes into something like the guide of the perplexed - or even Talmud. there are teachers who can teach this stuff even to people who have never thought themselves capable or interested. but this strident, confrontational approach of yours is simply designed to make you feel better about what you're doing and is no different from the sort of people that feel they need to "share the good news" or "invite you to faith".

b'shalom

bananabrain

[DT Strain]

Originally Posted by Phil Alexander

There is a type of Judaism called cultural Judaism. I am aware that it is to do with a personal view of the Scriptures and that you do not necessarily have to belive in G-D to be a cultural Jew.


I was wondering if someone could clarify what cultural Judaism is and as a separate point I was wondering what the implications could be for a religion if you can be a memeber of it without believing in G-D.

I've met quite a few people like this. I've also heard that it's becoming more common for Catholics in Europe. The idea of referring to one's self as religion X but not actually believing the beliefs, but merely practicing for traditional and cultural reasons. I can understand why this might cause a lot of confusion though

[Salonius]

BB-

Nice response; articulate, and i couldn't agree more. Nuance is difficult by the fact that it defies pat answers. I would say more on this topic but i don't think i could say it any better...

-Salonius