Darwins Finches evolve

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

Are you saying that your getting tan skin and bleached hair while on the island is an adaptation?

That would be like saying that a finch with a long beak actually had its beak shrink while on the island.

Is that really what you meant to say? Or is this a communication thing again?

If memory serves, there was a Seinfeld episode regarding "shrinkage". If I'm not mistaken that was also an environmental adaptation, although short-lived probably.

BTW, I'm on the side of science when addressing our realities (in case you hadn't noticed), even though the findings and theories are sometimes distorted and venalized because of money, power, and ego. I'll bet the creationist system folks suffer from the same human foibles.

But having worked with some very famous and well-respected scientists, for the most part their intentions were/are noble and moral IMHO, even if they sometimes don't turn out that way once they are published and exploited by others who might have not so noble and moral compunctions and intentions.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

Are you saying that your getting tan skin and bleached hair while on the island is an adaptation?

That would be like saying that a finch with a long beak actually had its beak shrink while on the island.

Is that really what you meant to say? Or is this a communication thing again?

My genetic sequences are not altered. Neither are the finch's (unless someone has information to the contrary). Since beaks are like fingernails...yes, the beak can shrink or grow depending on the needs at the moment. Hey, I'm willing to concede the point if someone will present the DNA comparisons between the finches of different geographical/environmental areas.

Case in point might be the wild Turkey and the domestic Turkey. Both have "dew claws", however the wild bird has a pronounced claw, wherein the domestic bird (farm grown), has a claw that is much smaller. Yet there is no genetic difference between the two birds...

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Good Morning Vaj!

in your view, evolution is not a change in allele frequencies?

I do not think "genetic drift" can occur within two generations, or four, or six or eight...

how long must something be changed for it to be considered "changed"? for instance, how long should the MSRE bug be resistant to our antibiotics before it would be considered resistant to our antibiotics?

I acquire an immunity to each virus I get causing me a cold. My DNA sequence didn't change, but my immune system learned to combat that particular virus, so that I won't get it again.

populations evolve, not individuals. hence the defintion as = change in allele frequencies in a population over time.

Starts with one, and the one must have a powerful "dominant" gene that will proliferate throughout the species. Still that has to take time (more than two generations to be sure).

oh?

so, you would say that homo sapien sapien is the same as homo sapien neandthalas?

Never saw concrete evidence as to the existence of Neanderthalas (let alone Cro-Magnan).

what time frame is acceptable to you for a population to evolve? 1 generation? 1,000 generations?

Depends on outside influences as well as breeding.

what about nested hierarchies and retrovirii?

Same template? Yes. Same species? Maybe not, let us compare the DNA sequences of the finches.

i see.

so, when the DNA does evidence evolution, what is the objection then? further, you realize that i am not one of the scientists that have published this report, correct?

None. But speculation verses "evidence to the fact" are two different ball games. Again, let us consider the comparrison of the DNA of the Island finches and finches elsewhere. Surely there will be a commonality as well as the differentian...and it will be most notable.

it is not "my wish" to demonstrate anything other than the continued accumulation of evidence and knowledge to support the various theories that humans have regarding the natural world.

I've yet to see the "evidence", hence my reservations...

it really comes down to ones a priori axioms and what they find to be pursuasive, in my view. clearly, you and i have different axioms and what we find to be pursuasive.

Sorry Vaj. I'm from "Missouri"...

I'm more than willing to entertain evolution, even as quickly as proscribed, if there is genetic evidence to the same.

A Platypus has a bill, but that doesn't make it a duck. The Finches on the Islands could very well be a unique breed of birds that look like finches elsewhere (mostly) but are not the same, in reality.

A redwing black bird, is not the same as a black bird...just like a Crow is not the same as a Raven, or a Hawk the same as an Eagle. Steelhead are not Salmon; rather they are sea going Trout.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Q,

well, if you are going to decide what you think biological evolution *should* be rather than work with what it is, i suspect that we shall never come to any agreement. we are working with two completely different ideas and are seemingly unable to communicate effectively with each other on this.

we have observed speciation in both the wild and in the labratory.

nevertheless, do not dodge the question about MSRE and MSRA. if evolution does not occur, why are these immune to our antiobiotics? and, further, how did they become so?

metta,

~v

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Q,

well, if you are going to decide what you think biological evolution *should* be rather than work with what it is, i suspect that we shall never come to any agreement. we are working with two completely different ideas and are seemingly unable to communicate effectively with each other on this.

we have observed speciation in both the wild and in the labratory.

nevertheless, do not dodge the question about MSRE and MSRA. if evolution does not occur, why are these immune to our antiobiotics? and, further, how did they become so?

metta,

~v

I'm very open to hear your take on evolution. As for MSRE and MSRA, well, with our anti-biotics we gave them the equivelent of...the flu. Hence their immune system is now programmed to repel that...?

It's just a thought.

v/r

Q