Dear Sirs

[cyberpi]

I read it many times to be sure. I must want to bring rain to a parade, but I don't. Yet this egg is now painted with so many stripes. Not just here, but everywhere. I must be Templeton the rat to respond to it now. I deplore it. I absolutely love that you expressed it, and I hate the message. I speak from my heart because I once painted it too. I discovered that it was wrong, it is a lie, it is out of phase, it kills Faith... it is what locks the door for whoever makes it their own. It shuts people out. It shuts God out. Consider this a spoken judgement if you will... not that the praises weren't. It is my frosty fingers that are typing it. Hate me if you must... in your eyes it must be my evil to type such a disrespectful thing. Surely you will think that I locked the door. Now I stand condemned by your words. It is what shut the door. If not a word, then what? What is left? You do not want to hear my spoken condemnation anymore... if there were such a thing. So I will be the bad guy... now I've done it. I easily forgive you, but I do rebuke that message. I submit: Not with God does a word ever hurt you... and no word spoken will God not hear.

[InLove]

cyberpi--

I don't understand. Can you please explain further? I want to know what you mean.

I am wondering if there is a misunderstanding of some kind on my part.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Hi cyberpi--

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I read it many times to be sure. I must want to bring rain to a parade, but I don't. Yet this egg is now painted with so many stripes. Not just here, but everywhere. I must be Templeton the rat to respond to it now. I deplore it. I absolutely love that you expressed it, and I hate the message.

I don't understand what the bolded part means. What is the egg, and what do the stripes mean? Why do you hate the message? I am asking because I kind of hated it, too, in a way. As I said, it was a bit frightening for me to post it. (And I don't think you're a rat, either. )

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I speak from my heart because I once painted it too. I discovered that it was wrong, it is a lie, it is out of phase, it kills Faith... it is what locks the door for whoever makes it their own. It shuts people out. It shuts God out. Consider this a spoken judgement if you will... not that the praises weren't. It is my frosty fingers that are typing it. Hate me if you must... in your eyes it must be my evil to type such a disrespectful thing. Surely you will think that I locked the door. Now I stand condemned by your words. It is what shut the door. If not a word, then what? What is left? You do not want to hear my spoken condemnation anymore... if there were such a thing. So I will be the bad guy... now I've done it. I easily forgive you, but I do rebuke that message.

I need to know what you mean by "it"? What do you think the poem says, and how does its message destroy faith? Some of your words here mirror some of my own feelings, so I would like a chance to understand and address your concern, if possible.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I submit: Not with God does a word ever hurt you... and no word spoken will God not hear.

Thank you for speaking openly with me, and I look forward to your response. I agree that words only hurt us insofar as we allow it, and of course God hears everything.

InPeace,
InLove

[Paladin]

Okay, I've hesitated to post on this one, but feel it is now time.
Cyberpi in the character role of "Templeton" serves an important function indeed as his response is both visceral and honest. Just as In Love's poem reveals both deep pain and a willingness to bring forward that which if left untouched can be poisonous. To watch the different levels of understanding and cultural value memes interact in this way is very instructive and quite profound.
In Love demonstrates the power and nobility of "Defenselessness" in which she bravely brings forth that which was inside herself, knowing that it is quite possible she could be derided for her views, and knowing full well that there is really, ultimately nothing to defend. This is what makes her both tenderly vulnerable, and Divinely invulnerable at the same time.
Cyberpi at the same time does exactly the same thing in his own fashion. Is this not facinating? Can anyone else see in all this interaction the reason why we are such a precious entity?

Peace
Mark

[InLove]

Well, all I can say is that I have "Charlotte's Web" pulled up, and I am re-reading it. It has been a very long time since I read it, and maybe there was some symbolism or metaphor I never fully grasped before. I know it was my youngest daughter's favorite book. And I have always found that she is deeply insightful, so....I'll get back to ya after the play, guys.

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

I think it is a very honest, heartfelt poem, full love and humility. Who hasn't sometimes felt that they've been judged and pushed outside of faith for not believing things in just a certain way. Who hasn't had the experience of being told that they don't understand correctly, and until they get it right from those in authority, they can't approach the alter.

Faith is choosing to trust in God...not making yourself conform to a certain narrow belief.

I'll be at that humble gate, if the path there is the one of Love. I'll see you there.

[InLove]

The path is one of Love, luna.

And--been meaning to say: China Cat, I understand completely. Thanks YO and path_of_one (good to see both of you around more these days).

Paladin: I see it. I do. It all works together, despite our different ways of seeing it. Templeton has his part, and so does Charlotte.

cyberpi--I hope you want to contribute some more of your thoughts, but if you don't, I understand. Just for the record, I had no idea that you felt this way. You and I haven't personally exchanged many words, and I did not have you in mind at all when I posted the poem. Just so you know.

I'll close this post with a quote I ran across this afternoon:

Well, what can I say about this pig that hasn't already been said? I know a lot of you folks have come out to the farm and you've seen the words, and a lot of you have asked me, 'how could this have happened?'. I don't know, but it has happened... at a time when we really don't see many miraculous things. Maybe we do. Maybe they're all right there around us everyday, we just don't know where to look. There's no denying that our own little Wilbur... he's part of something that's bigger than all of us. And life on that farm's just a whole lot better with him in it. He really is some pig.

(from Homer Zuckerman's character in Charlotte's Web)

InPeace,
InLove

[Star Sarellia]

I've read and re-read it a few times.. and it expresses itself to me in such a beautiful way.. and mirrors my own thoughts almost completely..

How honoured I shall be to find myself also at that wooden gate, not too far behind you

Thank you so much InLove for sharing it..

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by InLove

I don't understand. Can you please explain further? I want to know what you mean.

I was rebuking it. I am advising that it is a lie or a pit that people really don't want to be in. I am not offended; I am thankful you expressed it. I was trying to confront it head on honestly by being the 'sirs'. I'll try it sideways too.

Originally Posted by InLove

What is the egg, and what do the stripes mean?

I saw it like an easter egg, a brain-child and well painted with praise and applause, but never-the-less one that I consider an aged egg with a hard shell now being passed around. Yes, a time bomb.

Originally Posted by InLove

I need to know what you mean by "it"?

By "it" I meant the letter or poem and the beliefs the author reveals... not the words for the 'sirs' or for me as Templeton. The poem does try to 'condemn' the 'sirs' per the gospel as if they were the scribe or Pharisees.

Originally Posted by InLove

What do you think the poem says, and how does its message destroy faith?

I think the poem expresses some inner pains and a hope for them to go away or to be taken away. I don't really know who the author or the 'sirs' is supposed to be... I realize that you wrote it, but you also call it a poem and it reads like a nameless letter or the hint of something inspired. I read it from every angle, as if anyone were the author or the 'sirs', including Jesus or God. From every angle I see the author's pain and hope clearly. The whole thing is backwards. I will explain why line by line, example, gospel, any method that anyone will listen... or if nobody is interested, then I won't. It was well written and painted, an egg that I really, really did not want to go near from any angle. I love how it was expressed. I suggest the individual beliefs within it are not new to the world... they are everpresent. I have seen it expressed time and again now by people in many different ways, and I've come to see it where it misses its hope and lands back in it's own pain. I have backslided and landed in the same darkness expressed by the letter. There are some key concepts that I don't think any amount of personally shared words can show... well they can but a person doesn't learn by just reading them. For some things a person has to just do them for the right reasons, and then things are revealed to them within their own minds in their own way. I can see how expressing this letter would be a step towards that altar... expressing it may be an act of Faith for you. If so it is surely not overlooked from above. I suggest that whatever you benefit from it really came from God within your own mind... and will not be from anyone's words. If I have any true understanding it came from the same place. I notice that your action, the words in the letter, and your follow up to my words were contradictory... have you noticed that? Also your ears perked up and that is a very good sign for you, also contradictory to the expressed beliefs in the letter.

[InLove]

Thanks for your response, cyberpi. I know it takes serious time and effort to address an issue like this. I appreciate your time and the tone of your posts. Somehow, even though you have identified yourself as that “frosty finger of condemnation”, I don’t see you that way. I may be missing something, but I just don’t feel that from you.

The poem does try to 'condemn' the 'sirs' per the gospel as if they were the scribe or Pharisees.

I don’t think it condemns the “Sirs” themselves, but perhaps their actions. I am not even sure that “condemn” is the correct term. More like “reject” or “refute”. Maybe even “ignore”. Or how about “look past”?

I think the poem expresses some inner pains and a hope for them to go away or to be taken away.

Yes, but for whom? If these verses were only for myself, then there would have been no need for them to be written or posted. The writer is not expressing a desire for the addressees to go away, only finally accepting their condemnation and moving on.

I don't really know who the author or the 'sirs' is supposed to be... I realize that you wrote it, but you also call it a poem and it reads like a nameless letter or the hint of something inspired. I read it from every angle, as if anyone were the author or the 'sirs', including Jesus or God. From every angle I see the author's pain and hope clearly

.
I don’t really know how to answer the question regarding authorship. I wrote it down, so for practical purposes, I suppose it is me. I know that some of me is in there. Sorry—that is the best way I know how to explain it.

The “Sirs” are not Jesus or God. The “Sirs” are those people and ideas who condemn others according to their own interpretations of Scripture, thereby closing the door on the hope that Christ represents.

The whole thing is backwards. I will explain why line by line, example, gospel, any method that anyone will listen... or if nobody is interested, then I won't.

If after reading my response here, you still are compelled to do so, then I will certainly listen as openly as I am able. What I don’t think would be wise would be to turn the discussion into one where we throw bits and pieces of Scripture at one another like flaming torpedoes. That is the kind of action the poem addresses, and it usually proves to be a vicious cycle.

…I really, really did not want to go near from any angle.

Yet it disturbed you so that you kept coming back to it. I have to wonder why. Maybe there is an element of misunderstanding here as well as an element of truth?

I love how it was expressed. I suggest the individual beliefs within it are not new to the world... they are everpresent. I have seen it expressed time and again now by people in many different ways, and I've come to see it where it misses its hope and lands back in it's own pain. I have backslided and landed in the same darkness expressed by the letter. There are some key concepts that I don't think any amount of personally shared words can show... well they can but a person doesn't learn by just reading them. For some things a person has to just do them for the right reasons, and then things are revealed to them within their own minds in their own way. I can see how expressing this letter would be a step towards that altar... expressing it may be an act of Faith for you. If so it is surely not overlooked from above. I suggest that whatever you benefit from it really came from God within your own mind... and will not be from anyone's words. If I have any true understanding it came from the same place.

After I read the words that were written, I also realized how many people have expressed these thoughts. Some have been burned alive for doing so. I am thankful that I live where this is not a concern for me, at least not yet. But it is for many people in the world, even today. Cyberpi, I don’t see how the words land in pain. They don’t for me. They lead me back to the treasure that is the promise and hope of the Christ. I concur that there are some concepts or revelations that are difficult to put into language, and that’s why I can only go so far with words. Yes, I can truthfully tell you that expressing these thoughts in public was an act of faith for me.

I notice that your action, the words in the letter, and your follow up to my words were contradictory... have you noticed that? Also your ears perked up and that is a very good sign for you, also contradictory to the expressed beliefs in the letter.

I’m not sure what you mean by “contradictory”. If you mean responding to people who responded to the poem, what would you have me do? As I have said, I did not know what would happen with the OP. Maybe that is not what you mean. My ears perked up because I wanted to understand your comments, and because so much of what you said sounded a lot like how I felt when I read what I’d written. It sounded so close, yet so different.

If I sound confusing, it may be that there are just some things about the words I don’t want to interpret for someone else, if that makes any sense at all. I think the words speak pretty much for themselves. But in this case, I thought there might be a real misunderstanding of the intent behind them, and I want to clear that much up if I can. If not, then they stand for what they are. And certainly, if you understand something about them that I don’t see, then continue to help me see it, if you like. We may not ultimately see things the same way, but understanding one another is a good thing. It can be painful at times, but I think it is worth it.

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

[COLOR=black]I was rebuking it. I am advising that it is a lie or a pit that people really don't want to be in. I am not offended; I am thankful you expressed it. I was trying to confront it head on honestly by being the 'sirs'.

This makes me curious cyberpi, upon what basis you rebuke the path described by the poem. If you have an authority which is the yardstick you are using to make this judgement, it seems important for you to explain what that is. If your yardstick is your own personal understanding of the Bible, or if it is the Quran, or the Kitab-i-Aqdas, or if it is Watchtower, or Catholic Tradition, or whatever it is that you use for your discernment, I'd say the person being judged (and we readers whom you are trying to convince) should know this. If it is your personal interpretation of Christianity or God, what makes it any more reliable than someone else's personal interpretation?

[Pathless]

Hey InLove. I just found this thread while searching, this section of the forums being one that I don't frequent. I liked your poem, but I think this follow-up thought by you is the most poetic:

Originally Posted by InLove

I want all of you to understand that even though I may be learning what I would describe as languages new to me, it does not mean that I have turned away from this signed picture of Christ that I carry on my heart. He gave it to me. (I still speak Christian ).

Awesome.

[cyberpi]

I think I owe it to explain why I had 'rebuked' this thread. I used the strong word only to try to match the words in the letter. I have been looking for ways to encourage people to hear and judge themselves, and to hear and judge others more freely per the Gospel. That requires having open ears, a loose but honest tongue, and ample forgiveness. Maybe people here disagree with that, but I believe that flames, or judgemental words between people are just as important as words of encouragement. I think there is something for someone to learn about themselves in any interaction, including a flame. I find that people do learn about others or about themselves... because I have. So if I say anything offending, then please rebuke me but then forgive it. I think I tend to see things differently than most, so to try and share objetively what I saw, let me imagine that it is an important person in one of my relationships and to rewrite it with my words:

Dear sirs, no more words have you for me
Save a last condemnation spoken with a withered, frosty finger
And a heart even colder?

He placed me in darkness.
I judge that he judges me, and his last words were mean.
I judge that he is mean and lifeless.

As well you lock your heavy doors
Through which you say no transgression may pass,
Thereby closing up the altar to which I would most readily run
To set them down.
And so you would have Heaven shut.

I judge that he is not listening and is unforgiving.
I judge that he is preventing me from forgiving him, or for repenting and seeking his forgiveness.
I judge he is keeping me from heaven.

You stain the windows with stories you have chosen,
And it is you alone who may explain them.
It cannot be left to one such as I,
For certainly I will twist them up with confused logic
And inappropriate sentiment.
Surely I will make circles out of lines
And angels of demons,
For I am not to be trusted with secret and sacred knowledge—
All my fruits appear bruised and spoiled.

I judge that it is his fault he tells stories that I don't understand.
… as if I can't be confided in.
… as if I can't be logical enough.
… as if I can't read feelings.
… as if I would warp his words.
… as if I will not hear his rebuke.
For I can't be confided in to keep his secret or sacred knowledge,
I judge that he thinks my ears produce spoiled fruit.

And so you leave me to my kind—
Pray tell, Sirs, but who?
Who will embrace me now, since I carry your name?
I cannot bear to lose it,
But what is my choice
If I have been blotted out of your book?

But it is he that judged me and dumped me.
Who will take me now that I have labelled by him?
I did not ask for this,
So is it my fault since he shut me out first?

Perhaps there are still a few who will have me now,
And our wayward paths will meet and we will walk together;
I pray we find ourselves at a well-constructed gate--
I remember it as ancient wood, but it may be of stone;
And in passing through it, may we find our burdens welcome
And our names carved upon it.

Perhaps there are still some who will LOVE by my standard.
I still hope he will make it to the gate in heaven with me,
Where I hope we see how our burdens get accepted.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Does that look different? I used my words and emphasized, but that is what I read. What did I think was backwards? To me any relationship requires: Love, Faith, and Truth (honest communication). I submit that for me to have or be Love, to be forgiving, it is always my choice and it is unconditional. It is not him who prevents me from going to heaven, but I who may fall short. To be a faithful servant, I must have ears open and be asking for his words to serve him. Whereas in the letter I did not even ask what he wants. To place faith in him, I need to honestly express what it is that I wish him to do. So, for example if I wanted him to speak to me in a certain way then I need to express to him what that is... to request it. The heavy door in a relationship is really the ear... not the tongue. It is to his door this letter knocks on. If the ear were gone then the tongue is a loose cannon. I personally think it is good to judge and to provide that judgement... to communicate; however, in this letter I am already rebuking his tongue for not speaking to me on my terms. I do not disclose what that is or why I felt that I have been so far dealt mean words. I am mostly expressing that my ear is unhappy and that I have restrictions, which I can not forgive. That does not exactly aid the relationship. The letter reads to me like it is an incremental round of a flame... and not a love letter. However, communication is important, and on the reception side I would certainly value it over nothing.

I hope that provides some better insight.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I hope that provides some better insight.

Hi cyberpi . Yes, it does. You know what? I pretty much knew that, I think. I read your posts often, and they frequently, if not always, have a depth to them that amazes me.

I most certainly do understand what you are saying here, and I agree with you. And I am sure you understand that in no way was I addressing you personally. But I have to say "no, thank you" to the doctrine of exclusiveness. The poem is not meant to shut the door from the side I am on, which in this case, is outside of salvation in the eyes of those inside. However, I do see how it could be read as if the writer has shut the door--and I knew it when I posted it. And that is what made me so sad about it.

What needed to be said, I think, (and what was said), was not for the writer. But the writer understands how devastating it can be when one becomes convinced that the grace of salvation is not for everyone. The words were written for them--not to flame the addressees, but to express hope for those who have none.

You know, you have me wondering if there will be a time when something else comes to me to write--something along the lines of what you said, or maybe something added to the poem. I can't just add it from intellect--I wouldn't. But maybe I will be led in the Spirit of Love, Wisdom, Forgiveness...and if I am, I know I will remember your words in the process. I know they will be there.

In the meantime, you have put them here on this thread, and I thank you.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

(bumping thread because last post is not showing up in New Posts)