death is swallowed up - Page 12

Silas · 01-10-2007, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images. isaiah 42;8

Mee, lets use a translation we both can agreen, lets use the KJV. According to Isa. 42:8, Jehovah will not share His glory nor will He give it to anyone else. Please answer the question, why is He giving glory to a created being like Jesus?

aburaees · 01-10-2007, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Mee, lets use a translation we both can agreen, lets use the KJV. According to Isa. 42:8, Jehovah will not share His glory nor will He give it to anyone else. Please answer the question, why is He giving glory to a created being like Jesus?

Silas, I would like you to show us a verse where God gives/shares his own glory to Jesus, please.

.

Quahom1 · 01-10-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aburaees

Silas, I would like you to show us a verse where God gives/shares his own glory to Jesus, please.

.

One example out of about 357...

"This is what the LORD [Jehovah] says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

"Behold, I [Jesus] am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Revelation 22:12-13)

It doesn't get much clearer than that...

v/r

Joshua

aburaees · 01-10-2007, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

One example out of about 357...

"This is what the LORD [Jehovah] says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

"Behold, I [Jesus] am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Revelation 22:12-13)

It doesn't get much clearer than that...

v/r

Joshua

Thank you Joshua. The only problem I see with that is the name Jesus is inserted in brackets [Jesus] and not actually in the text. So there's going to be a dispute over who is actually the speaker in Revelation 22. Some will say Jesus, whilst others will say Jehovah, and some will say in return "I know, that's what I meant when I said Jesus".

Quahom1 · 01-10-2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aburaees

Thank you Joshua. The only problem I see with that is the name Jesus is inserted in brackets [Jesus] and not actually in the text. So there's going to be a dispute over who is actually the speaker in Revelation 22. Some will say Jesus, whilst others will say Jehovah, and some will say in return "I know, that's what I meant when I said Jesus".

Ah, Dear sir. So true. But for one small detail. Jesus' return is specifically noted in the NT. Not only when, but how He will return. Interestingly it coinsides exactly with Revelation...

Years apart, different authors, same story...only the conclusion is up for grabs. (from the clouds and a soft landing, or from the clouds with legions of angels behind Him, bent on battle?). The "witnesses" never divulged that bit of detail...so, we don't know.

v/r

Joshua

Silas · 01-10-2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aburaees

Silas, I would like you to show us a verse where God gives/shares his own glory to Jesus, please. .

Sure! Hebrews 1 comes to mind. Look at all the special things God is doing for Jesus. He even calls Him "God." Why is God sharing His glory with Jesus, a supposed angel?

aburaees · 01-10-2007, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Sure! Hebrews 1 comes to mind. Look at all the special things God is doing for Jesus. He even calls Him "God." Why is God sharing His glory with Jesus, a supposed angel?

Thank you Silas. This is interesting, and the problem here is agreeing upon a definition - and that is; what does it mean for God to give his glory to or share it with another?

If Hebrews said "and God gave his glory to Jesus" then we would have something to think about i.e. is Jesus God? But Hebrews doesn't state that in those exact words, neither does the rest of the Bible...

So what constitutes giving God's glory to another? And what exactly is God's glory in the first place - pretty hard to define, but pretty easy to conjecture.

I like Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

.

mee · 01-11-2007, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

One example out of about 357...

"This is what the LORD [Jehovah] says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

"Behold, I [Jesus] am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Revelation 22:12-13)

It doesn't get much clearer than that...

v/r

Joshua

Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. .................... in this verse Jehovah is once again emphasizing his eternal sovereignty, and the fact that what he first purposes he will at last perform. yes Jehovah the king of eternity. This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. isaiah 44;6 yes ,it is Jehovah who is the true God. Psalm 83;18and Gods purpose is all tied up in Jesus christ. and the book of revelation makes thrilling reading and makes those listening to the prophecies very happy. Jesus plays a very big part in Gods purpose for the earth . but this purpose for the earth is only coming about because of the most high Jehovah. he is the most high .

Silas · 01-11-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aburaees

Thank you Silas. This is interesting, and the problem here is agreeing upon a definition - and that is; what does it mean for God to give his glory to or share it with another?

If Hebrews said "and God gave his glory to Jesus" then we would have something to think about i.e. is Jesus God? But Hebrews doesn't state that in those exact words, neither does the rest of the Bible...

Hmm. OK, prehaps I should rephrase the question as thus:

Why does the God who said "I will not share my glory or praise due to me with another" share praises with Jesus inasumch as The Father has angels and man worshipping Jesus? Jesus is recieving glory from God inasmuch as Jehovah is calling Him God and giving Him authority over all. Why?

aburaees · 01-11-2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Hmm. OK, prehaps I should rephrase the question as thus:

Why does the God who said "I will not share my glory or praise due to me with another" share praises with Jesus inasumch as The Father has angels and man worshipping Jesus? Jesus is recieving glory from God inasmuch as Jehovah is calling Him God and giving Him authority over all. Why?

If Jesus is receiving glory from anyone, how do we know that it is God's glory? And if Jesus is receiving praise from anyone, how do we know that it is praise due to God that he is receiving?

Jesus himself does nothing to glorify himself, he continually glorifies his Father. In fact Jesus is the brightness of God's glory - this sounds to me like Jesus belongs to God's glory and not the other way around, or that Jesus represents God's glory and the glory he reprsents does not belong to himself but belongs to his Father.

And why did God exalt Jesus to a superior position to the rest of creation? Because it pleased Him to do so I suppose.

In any case, we're still going to have to define God's glory before we can move on, and while we're at it we're going to have to define (or prove) Jesus' glory. Then we can see if Jesus does share God's glory, or if Jesus' glory and God's glory are two different things altogether.

.

Silas · 01-11-2007, 10:15 PM

aburaees

If Jesus is receiving glory from anyone, how do we know that it is God's glory?

Sorry, I dont understand your question.

And if Jesus is receiving praise from anyone, how do we know that it is praise due to God that he is receiving?

Jesus says in the Bible that we are to only worship God. God said in Hebrews that the angels are to worship Jesus. How's that to be reconciled in "Jesus is not God" theology?

Jesus himself does nothing to glorify himself, he continually glorifies his Father.

Amen. That was one of His purpose in coming to earth and showing us how to live - namely, "whatever you do, whether you eat or drink, do it to the Glory of God."

In any case, we're still going to have to define God's glory before we can move on, and while we're at it we're going to have to define (or prove) Jesus' glory. Then we can see if Jesus does share God's glory, or if Jesus' glory and God's glory are two different things altogether.

God's glory and be summed up in two words: "Eternal Life." "This is eternal life: That you may know the one true God and Jesus and whom He sent." Eternal life consist of knowing all the exellencies of God for all eternity; since it will take eternity to know an infinite being. That's God's glory - that. It is bound up in the maxium joy of His creatures. So, when we are fully satisfied in Him, He'll be fully Glorified in us, giving Him the glory and we the joy - best of both possible worlds. Eternal life consist of Knowing Jesus, the God-man, the one is was the word and became flesh, the one who died and yet lives and reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords. The one in whom we observe a conjuction of diverse exellencies - forever and ever.

mee · 03-02-2007, 09:15 AM

Comparing sin and death to a suffocating "woven work," or "envelopment," Isaiah says: "In this mountain [Jehovah] will certainly swallow up the face of the envelopment that is enveloping over all the peoples, and the woven work that is interwoven upon all the nations. He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces."—Isaiah 25:7, 8a. yes death is interwoven and envoloping all the nations, but hey no worries Gods kingdom will put an end to this horrible enemy death , it will be swallowed up forever
With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."revelation 21;3-4ohhhhhhhhh what a relief , the former things will have passed away .......no more death ... the way it is now we have to try and do everything in a few short years , but even then old age stops people from doing all that they want to do. will it not be great when we dont have the ageing prosess to hinder us ?yes Jehovahs purpose for the earth is working towards its original purpose and that is to have humans living on a paradise earth forever. and this will all come about through Gods kingdom ,and Jesus is ruling as king of Gods heavenly kingdom ,and when a king has the power of the most high behind him it will do great things
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 1 corinthians 15;24-25