Debaptism

[Mirko]

is there a way in any christian denomination that a persons sacrament of baptism into the christian faith can be officially revoked?

excomunication and apostasy serve as ways to officially be removed or remove oneself from a denomination and or renounce a given belief system, but both for the excomunicated and the apostate "It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection."(quote from PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS; ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA)

there is aparently a way that church authorities can be contacted by person or persons demanding their names be removed from the baptismal books and church statistics

but how likely is a church to go along with this? and is that it, does the fact of removal from statistical registry of baptisms constitute formal debaptism, as in the annulment and revocation of the sacrament of baptism?

[wil]

Wow, can't imagine worrying that much about it.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Mirko

is there a way in any christian denomination that a persons sacrament of baptism into the christian faith can be officially revoked?

excomunication and apostasy serve as ways to officially be removed or remove oneself from a denomination and or renounce a given belief system, but both for the excomunicated and the apostate "It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection."(quote from PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS; ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA)

there is aparently a way that church authorities can be contacted by person or persons demanding their names be removed from the baptismal books and church statistics

but how likely is a church to go along with this? and is that it, does the fact of removal from statistical registry of baptisms constitute formal debaptism, as in the annulment and revocation of the sacrament of baptism?

Not according to my bible.

[17th Angel]

No not really.... It is a promise/agreement/a bold statement made between that person and YHWH, I would believe the only one who can tipex out your name from the book of life is he.... A church cannot Put null and void on a personal agreement between god and a man.. Only one of the two can do that... And I think you shall find most of the time.... it is the later which does it. Dunno just my thoughts....

[Mirko]

but the sacrament is still given in a ritual preformed by a church official
most sacraments in the catholic faith are ritual initiations of sorts, preformed by the church, and participated by the believers
other than the hypothetical spiritual dimension these are formal religious acts, and are confirmed by paperwork and church statistics
in other words, weather one believes in the power or value of sacraments or not, they are backed by official documentation, that lists the person as a member of a faith even if the person undergoes formal excomunication and does all officially necessary for apostasy

so there must be a third thing that is to be done, so that the persons name be taken out of church records as baptized, or in other words to be formally recognized by the religious organization that baptized him, as a non-christian

you might say it is not important, and from an atheist perspective it really has little importance, but seeing as there was no personal agreement between the individual and the church, let alone a god of any kind, and that the individual does not believe in the possibility of agreement with such entity, its more a question of principle, or personal identity, or personal satisfaction, than something one would worry about

im simply interested in the possibilities and the formal aspects of the problem

[Dream]

You could losely compare baptism to joining the Marines. Think about the way the Marines work: their individuality dissolves into the whole. They are happy when their comrades are safe and when one suffers they all suffer together. Even their dead share in the victories and in the losses, because all share one identity. Once a marine has fought, that marine is forever a part of that battle and of the word 'Marine' whether they are discharged or not; and whether honorably or not. Baptism is thought of in the same way.

When you eat or drink anything it becomes a part of you so that you cannot identify where it went exactly. It is in your body somewhere, or perhaps it has been sweated out. When a person gets baptized they disappear into the greater body, so you no longer know 'where' they are. I think that is why you'd be hard pressed to find a church that thinks it can undo a baptism. The rational given for excommunication (which you mentioned) is that it is for the good of the person being excommunicated. I'm not saying I agree with excommunication. What I'm saying is as far as I know there is no way to declare someone as unbaptized, whether or not the baptism is called a sacrament, because the concept of baptism excludes that possibility.

[Mirko]

that would make sense if you could join a military or paramilitary when 9 months old

is it not an obvious problem that a person, no matter how many times he or she is excomunicated or declares apostasy, is still counted as part of that "grater body" or "body of Christ" that you speak of, no matter what that person believes
for an atheist it really comes down to paperwork, one is considered officially part of a statistic one personally refuses to be part of

there are laws in the european union that say a person can demand to be removed from statistical registries such as the baptismal registry, but aparently most churches are reluctant to do this and find some way to get around it, or burry it in paperwork

would a ritual approach convince the religious authorities?
for instance a ritual of form and matter directly opposite to the form and matter of baptism
now the form of baptism is said to be the standardized frase "i baptise you in the name of the father the son and the holy ghost", so to reverse this is easy, ider literarly reverse the sentence and the letters in each word, or reverse the meaning, with "in the name of" replaced by "in aknowleging the non-existance of" for instance
the matter is said to be water and ablution, so this is more complicated, as in what is the opposite of water? fire? then ablution in water would have its oposite in smearing with ash, or passing trough fire? no?
fisical harm could probably be avoided as olnly a short simbolic act would be needed
if baptism is believed to make a permanent mark on a persons soul, would this simbolic act be enough to at least "paint ower" or "fill in" that imagined mark, make it meaningless somehow, even if just by simbolicaly crossing it out?

could this be enough argument for a church, even if it refuses to acept legal and beurocratic methods, to count one out of that "greater body"?

i know all this sounds strange
just to understand each other, im not about to go perfoming silly rituals or showe my face in ash any more than i believe i have a soul with a mark on it, im simply interested in this question from a theological point of wiev
i actually asked a priest but he wasnt wery helpfull, so im asking here, hoping to get a discussion

[Dream]

Murko, the only thing similar to your idea of baptism-reversal is being 'Spewed out of his mouth' (Rev 3:16), but that passage is about entire churches or possibly the entire church and still does not reverse baptism. Prove to the church that it has been spewed out, and it will still consider you baptized. You can claim that you are reverse-baptized, but Christians are forbidden to consider it possible as we lack the ability to make that judgement!

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Mirko

from an atheist perspective it really has little importance

Then don't trouble yourself about it lol....

[Mirko]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Then don't trouble yourself about it lol....

it is not something that i trouble myself with, its simply a question i find interesting

then again you might say it is a question of principles or personal identity, even political preference, in some strange way

[ChristineES]

I have never heard of anyone being unbaptized, but then again the Baptist Church doesn't believe that anyone who is saved can ever lose their salvation, too. (I am a Baptist, btw).

[Dream]

Christine, Baptist churches are independent of each other even within the various conventions. There are many who do not believe that.