Debunking "the devil"...

[bananabrain]

weak argument? which bit of the argument is weak? can you explain? not sure what you're saying.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[I, Brian]

Apologies for that - - what I'm inadvertently saying is that you have presented a new idea to me, and I'm terrible at being able to handle new ideas without at least some period of reflection.

I had wanted to correct my post quickly after - frankly, it looks somewhat rude (and sincere apologies for that) - but I had to attened to tea-time chores (cooking, cleaning, etc).

My post should have been structured along the lines of:

Certainly there's a lot inf the "Jesus and Hell" that is controversial - but it's written principally as an exploration of Jesus from a non-typical perspective.

I was personally taking my cue from Josephus, principally his comments on the factionalised nature of Judea, and the complete disunity of the population, up towards the time of the Seige of Jerusalam. It is worth noting particularly that Josephus makes a point of stating Gallilee a place of particular lawlessness.

The notion of the Good Samaritan being a violation of ritual purity is an interesting idea, though, and one I've not encountered before.

It would be especially interesting to see whether that interpretation has any direct relevance from a Christian point of view, especially with reference to general preachings against the Pharisees - and perhaps, the lack of leadership and vision that Jesus is trying to correct, as suggested in a somewhat controversial re-interpretation.

[bananabrain]

josephus is a historical authority, not a religious one. he also sold out to the romans, which makes him pretty questionable from our PoV.

jewishly speaking, it is perfectly feasible for jesus to have been attacking the behaviour of hypocritical members of the religous establishment (ie priests and levites) without suggesting that the notion of ritual purity was somehow invalid - in fact, the argument i have made actually seems to put jesus firmly in the rabbinic - ie pharisaic - camp. i'd have to take preaching against the pharisees, however, on specifics, so feel free to quote me an example or too and i will attempt to respond.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

josephus is a historical authority, not a religious one. he also sold out to the romans, which makes him pretty questionable from our PoV.

From a purely historical perspective, all ancient sources are questionable to some degree, and usually infused with some degree of politik. The history of Byzantium seems especially overt on that point.

Though his comments require a wider reading to be better placed in context, Josephus does still include saleint cultural and historical points.

I think it was the work sometimes translated as "The War with Rome" were I noted the passage where he described Gallilee as particularly violent and factional. If that's a reflection of any form of historical reality, then it certainly makes for an intersting qualifier for aspects of the Gospels.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

jewishly speaking, it is perfectly feasible for jesus to have been attacking the behaviour of hypocritical members of the religous establishment (ie priests and levites) without suggesting that the notion of ritual purity was somehow invalid - in fact, the argument i have made actually seems to put jesus firmly in the rabbinic - ie pharisaic - camp. i'd have to take preaching against the pharisees, however, on specifics, so feel free to quote me an example or too and i will attempt to respond.

b'shalom

bananabrain

I think we are on far similar lines of thinking on many aspects covered across our posts.

I have a query about the Pharisees - but I'll take that to a new thread.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards to all!

Once again, it seems I'm a little late to the party.

I want to thank everybody for the very well researched answers. It was very educational.

I suspect perhaps what WiccanWade was initially searching for pertains to the profound effect Dante's "Divine Comedy" had on the general Christian population, circa 1300, encouraged so I have read somewhere by the clergy on the essentially illiterate masses. The best article I have found that addressed the issue solely was in one of the popular newsmagazines some years back (US News and World Report, I believe, but it may well have been Time or Newsweek). I apologize for not having an author to quote, the bulk of my studies until recently have been a personal pursuit without regard for having to eventually cite sources.

At any rate, my understanding is that the common mental image of a "Devil" in red, long-handled underwear with horns on his head, a pitchfork and pointed tail stems from the period of Dante's comedy. A couple of sources I have read were emphatic that Dante wrote his work as a farce, yet is was received among the masses almost as a vision. Certain elements linger in the Christian psyche to this day, including the aforementioned mental image of the Devil.

I don't know if this helps any or not, but my intent is sincere.

I am in agreement with Bananabrain and WHKeith in their presentations (I was on a similar path in my studies, I just hadn't gone nearly as deep into the subject). I am grateful to them in particular for expanding this area of my understanding. As for a visual image, I think the Dead Sea Scroll "War between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness" sums it up nicely for me. Incarnate evil, if there be such a thing (a good potentiality in my mind), is an unfathomable black darkness. Kind of like a black hole. That is the mental image I hold.

I would hasten to add, in the sense of scholarship, it seems somewhat improper in my humble opinion to seek out research to support a position, rather than developing the position from where the research leads.

One final question, is there something to being published that I am unaware of? Is a person's scholarship somehow enhanced by virtue of being published? Or is there some other component I am unaware of and overlooking? Just curious...there seems to be a great deal of emphasis on writing for the sake of publication throughout these pages and this site.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Banana, in regard to ritual purity I must commend Judaism and Islam for their insistence on ritual purity which works very well for personal hygiene.

No amount of wiping can do as thorough a job as a good cleansing with water. Install a douche-bidet in your bathroom. Good specially for the womenfolk.

I have heard of how Muslims are inconvenienced by the religious prescription to wash their anal region after defecation and also after urination the adjunct area. In a long bus trip along the highway for a convenience stop for the needs of nature, Muslims could delay departure in their search for water to do their religious washing.

What about Jews who are faithful to the letter of their law?

I am really serious here. At home I have installed douche-bidet in every bathroom. We don't use toilet paper except for visitors which is also available, not among ourselves. After major function we proceed to the douche-bidet bowl and do the cleansing of the anal region, then with a bowl brush clean if need be also the douche-bidet bowl. Try it at home, everyone here: very practical, and not to be queasy; it's really much more cleaner. And of course wash your hands afterwards, paying attention to your nails.

I picked up the cleansing idea from Muslims, but the douche-bidet from the French. Do Jews do some similar procedure> I am eager to learn something from them in this direction

Susma Rio Sep

[wil]

Anyone else old enough to remember Geraldine? "The Devil made me do it"

It appears to me it is awfully handy to have a convenient excuse, create one if you need one, set personal responsibility aside and place blame somewhere else for your actions.

That being said I think the 'devil' exists within all of us that whole free will thing decides which way we are going to go. Between peer pressure and the little cartoon characters on each shoulder whispering in our ear we need to take charge of ourselves sometime...it is all part of the learning and growing process...