Deut 13:18?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Francis king

and what a filthy and abhorrent practise it is... in some parts of the world this still occurs- eastern block, and africa, amongst other places, and I know that because i watched a documentary last year on channel four about it... the sheets after the bride is deflowered are paraded to others as part of traditional wedding ceremony, to show others that the bride was a virgin, and so the marriage and the bride are not tainted by suspicion... as 17th has said...

not only this, though, in the documentary I watched, the family did not wait 'til the next day, to collect the sheets quietly- no, they took the girl into the bedroom, and the man was expected to do his thing whilst the family stood around outside listening at the door... then, when the girl who has just been deflowered, and let's not forget where there's blood there's pain, begins to cry, in they all ran, to take the sheets...

the tokens are a polite way of describing stains, and oftentimes the family keep possession of the sheets for a good while, just in case the husband later says that she was not a virgin, etc... however: the hymen can be broken in many innocent ways; horseriding, using tampons, vigourous gymnastics, sports, etc, and so it is not real proof of virginity, this blood/no blood upon the sheets...

psychologically, this kind of thing is disturbing, that we, on our computers, should be wondering about it, I think... for me, it's another link in the chain of the subjegation of women... if ur hymen is so important, it means u cannot run, skip, and play rough and tumble sports... it means u can't use tampons either, which means u have to use jam-rags, which means that u cannot possibly go swimming or do sports while on ur period, nor can u wear tight pants or short skirts... this means that instead of participating in life, u become a spectator, at certain times in ur life... as well as this, u smell, which means that u are embarrassed/ashamed to be a woman, at certain times in ur life, and on it goes... little by little, u become nothing more than a fanny, defined completely by ur quim, and it's seasons... a virgin with a fully functioning hymen- yes boys, the Lord is blessing u...

at the same time she's getting told that the man is the powerful and pure one and this means he's the one who makes the decisions and she learns that she is just a deceitful quim, like Eve, or Lillith, punished with this "issue" for some sin of the progenitor of those with quims... instead of sex being the natural by-product of lust, or love, sex is then a duty, and then, as a fanny, without a law degree or any real sway within society ur only other real purpose is to make babies and cook the dinner... and so on it goes...

legions of docile bints, feeling bad about themselves, all because of silly tales like this one... and hey, it's not just in christianity that this occurs, but hinduism- where girls in an ashram can't go into the kitchen and cook becuase they're dirty, as they're on their period, in Judaism, where women take ceremonial baths to cleanse themselves, officially, after their period, because women are dirty bints, and they should all be ashamed of themselves...

and as we're in the christianity thread...

is deuteronomy part of the NT?

no, it isnt... so why should Christians bother with this kind of thing?

my mind is boggling...

where is Jesus here? he's not there, is he?

nope! so... should christians bother themselves with trying to understand these unenlightened tales of misery and opression?

nope

What is 'filthy' about a woman being proven to be a virgin on her wedding night? She usually is the one who puts the sheet out the window. It isn't a banner for the family, but rather a banner for the woman. She is stating "My husband consumated me, and now I am his wife...all others, look elsewhere."

You aren't reading the culture correctly...

oh... you forgot a minor detail...we're "Jeudao-Christians"...we got our start from the Pentatuch.

[Francis king]

and then jesus came to give us a new testament...

my husband comsumated me... wowzer... great claim to fame, that one...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Francis king

and then jesus came to give us a new testament...

my husband comsumated me... wowzer... great claim to fame, that one...

Gee, I'm sorry. Not all men are less than satisfactory. Most leave stars in the eyes of their better halves...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What is 'filthy' about a woman being proven to be a virgin on her wedding night?
You aren't reading the culture correctly...

It is gross lol.... Would you like your little daughters sweaty/bloody bed sheet shown to the whole freaking town? lol..... It is a primative act if you ask me... And most have had sex before marriage anyway now-a-days. Also there is this word... Trust... You ever heard of that word? Also something else you may find interesting virgin/hymen bleeding.... It don't always happen fact. So a REAL virgin that doesn't bleed gets freaking stoned to death? Simpletons....

Originally Posted by Quahom1

oh... you forgot a minor detail...we're "Jeudao-Christians"...we got our start from the Pentatuch.

Not all christians

[bananabrain]

you see, this is precisely the sort of discussion that occurs when people argue about the contents of the "lecture" with only the "lecture notes" to hand. this verse is important for a number of reasons but the most important are around divorce. in jewish law, when a couple divorce, the wife is entitled to a financial settlement known as the "ketubah". there are tariffs for this set in the Torah and they vary according to the circumstances. one of the major determinants is that of the wife's status at the time of betrothal and marriage. a virgin, as in almost all societies, comes with a higher price tag. furthermore, the father, as in almost all societies up until recently, has a financial interest in this transaction.

now, this may be all very interesting, but it's not entirely straightforward, as a glance at the Oral Law will make clear. for example, what do we mean by "virgin"? what about, for example, the horse (or bike) riding example where the hymen has been ruptured prior to betrothal? this is known in halakhah as "she fell on a stick" and there is a large argument (which i happen to have just studied) in tractate ketubot of the talmud about the point at which the disclosure of this should take place and whether it should be believed or not - as, presumably, the woman could be lying because she wasn't a virgin. you will be interested to know that it is presumed that she is telling the truth.

what is more, the sages consider the "bedsheet gambit" unreliable, because any person with half a brain would be able to fake a decent token - they conclude this based on consulting with their mothers, wives and birth professionals. consequently there is a general presumption that someone getting married for the first time is a virgin, even nowadays, because it is also forbidden to embarrass someone in public. so in practice, this would never occur although it would be permitted in theory.

as for the father's interest, it is also extensively investigated - there is a big argument over whether this interest continues into the girl's adulthood - bear in mind that when it says "married", it usually means "betrothed", not "consummated" (the term in hebrew is in fact better translated as "unification") and that this betrothal might take place very early on in life, such as 5 years old. nowadays, incidentally, formal betrothal takes place a couple of minutes before actual marriage to avoid the possibility of a need to break the betrothal itself, which would be nearly as much trouble as an actual divorce. and nobody gets married that early, of course!

there is also a major question over the point at which the father relinquishes his responsibility. normally, of course, it would be at age twelve or whenever "two hairs appear", but if a minor is betrothed and then widowed either before or after subsequent marriage, she is also an adult, financially speaking.

the salient point here is not, in fact, about virginity, but actually about bearing false witness. in this case the husband has a financial interest in claiming that his wife wasn't a virgin, because her ketubah would be only 100 zuz, not 200. that's why the proof is important. the sheet or "tokens" are important only insofar as they are rarely if ever available, hence this verse is more important for the discussion it kicks off, given the general presumption of virginity in a bride.

Originally Posted by Francis king

in Judaism, where women take ceremonial baths to cleanse themselves, officially, after their period, because women are dirty bints, and they should all be ashamed of themselves...

ahem, francis, this is not correct. the concepts you refer to have nothing to do with cleanliness or hygiene but are in fact to do with the spiritual status of "tamei" and "tahor", usually mistranslated as "un/clean" or "im/pure". men are also required to immerse if their status needs switching, but the status changes before the immersion is permitted, the immersion marking the transition. i have also heard it described as similar to "positive" and "negative" (without the value judgement) poles in electricity - both are needed but when they are connected incorrectly the energy doesn't flow.

in fact, the immersion pool or "mikvah" is the antecedent of baptism and has much the same function (converts also have to immerse) - the symbolic and mystical aspects are to do with re-connecting women to the infinite waters of life after experiencing the sadness and withdrawal commonly associated with menstruation; i'm not a woman, obviously, but this is how it has been explained to me by women. you should also know that women in judaism are in control of whether they are sexually available or not and it is their withdrawal to a women-only environment that provides them with a space from which they can emerge refreshed and renewed, just as their body is designed to do monthly. for example, mrs bb considers it a way to preserve her space within our relationship and emphasise the non-physical aspects, such as, oh, i don't know, conversation and so on. we simply formalise this process in order that it be treated with the proper respect, not as a messy inconvenience.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

both are needed but when they are connected incorrectly the energy doesn't flow.

kthxlolz..... Connected incorrectly? It is an act of nature? You know... Something that is naturally meant to happen..... It is part of the I guess you'd call it "design" of the female human... Like many other female animals that go through the same process.... If that is wrong, and 'connected incorrectly.' Maybe your god should check his blueprints as there is a fault in his design...

[Penguin]

I think the process is discusting, it makes women look cheap and like worthless pieces of meat that are there to be pumped and abused, and then to have that private and special moment (if you can bloody call it that!) of loosing their virginity put on public display for all and sundry. Question - Do you remember your first time? Answer - Oh yes I got pumped for 2 minutes hard by my husband whilst my family were listening outside the door. Then they rushed to my bed, stripped off the sheet and my blood etc was displayed for all to see. How thrilling and compassionate for the woman e'h!

What sort of special first time is that for a woman? It's easy for men to say "ahh yes, they love it, they had to do it it's their faith/beliefs etc" what a load of sh*t!! It's an invasion of privacy and is sick. Who gives a sh!t about tradition. It's about what a person wants and freedom of choice and it doesn't sound like the poor old women get much of that does it!

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Penguin

I think the process is discusting, it makes women look cheap and like worthless pieces of meat that are there to be pumped and abused, and then to have that private and special moment (if you can bloody call it that!) of loosing their virginity put on public display for all and sundry. Question - Do you remember your first time? Answer - Oh yes I got pumped for 2 minutes hard by my husband whilst my family were listening outside the door. Then they rushed to my bed, stripped off the sheet and my blood etc was displayed for all to see. How thrilling and compassionate for the woman e'h!

What sort of special first time is that for a woman? It's easy for men to say "ahh yes, they love it, they had to do it it's their faith/beliefs etc" what a load of sh*t!! It's an invasion of privacy and is sick. Who gives a sh!t about tradition. It's about what a person wants and freedom of choice and it doesn't sound like the poor old women get much of that does it!

What sort of special first time for that woman? Not that special obviously if it were only 2 minutes as you stated

*hushed voice* don't speak of tradition like that! There's jews around!

[Faithfulservant]

This comes from a society where its the norm to watch every aspect of intimacy between a man and woman by the pushing of a button or the flip of a channel.

I think dirtiness is in the eye of the beholder

[Penguin]

Whatever the length of duration, (I picked 2 minutes at random!) it's still beastial and sick 17th!

"I think dirtiness is in the eye of the beholder"

Humans always behold what they think is "right" even when it's wrong, no matter how sick or perverse, just for themselves! Ignorance in the flesh!

Now I has der carrot!

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Whatever the length of duration, (I picked 2 minutes at random!) it's still beastial and sick 17th!

Now I has der carrot!

Oh I whole heartedly agree... Tradition is simply an excuse for stupidity

NO I has teh carrot!

[Faithfulservant]

Right Penguin thats why I think I personally make the choice to believe what the bible says about right and wrong. The flesh is weak.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

kthxlolz..... Connected incorrectly? It is an act of nature? You know... Something that is naturally meant to happen.....

yes, but the laws in the Torah mandate that there are only certain times when you are allowed to have it off. thus, if you "connect" at the wrong time [of the month], you are "incorrectly connected". time is one of the five dimensions of the spiritual. something that is right at one time can be wrong at another, you know? so turning on a light on the sabbath is wrong, but is fine the rest of the time.

It is part of the I guess you'd call it "design" of the female human... Like many other female animals that go through the same process....

i know, but the axiomatic position of judaism is that humans are not the same as animals, because we have free will and the choice to govern our instincts. there's nothing wrong with the design itself, it is morally neutral. it is the human action that isn't.

Originally Posted by Penguin

I think the process is disgusting, it makes women look cheap and like worthless pieces of meat that are there to be pumped and abused, and then to have that private and special moment (if you can bloody call it that!) of loosing their virginity put on public display for all and sundry.

firstly, i think the sages agree with you, which is why they legislated this procedure out of feasibility, as i described in my previous post. secondly, judaism takes sex extremely seriously and, i cannot stress this too much, the CUSTODIAN AND GATEKEEPER FOR SEXUAL RELATIONS IS ALWAYS THE WOMAN, NOT THE MAN. hence the sort of sexual act you describe here would be absolutely forbidden - as 17th's comment indicates! so basically the whole thing would never arise anyway.

It's an invasion of privacy and is sick.

you see, this is what i don't quite get, penguin. you're all het up about this token business which i've shown you can't for all intents and purposes take place and wouldn't be valid even if it did, for the reasons i've described above, yet you don't seem to realise that the reason for separating men and women during the niddah period is to give the woman *privacy* and allow her to regain her personal space, to which only she may negotiate entry.

can *i* have teh carrot now?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

It is gross lol.... Would you like your little daughters sweaty/bloody bed sheet shown to the whole freaking town? lol..... It is a primative act if you ask me... And most have had sex before marriage anyway now-a-days. Also there is this word... Trust... You ever heard of that word? Also something else you may find interesting virgin/hymen bleeding.... It don't always happen fact. So a REAL virgin that doesn't bleed gets freaking stoned to death? Simpletons....



Not all christians

Not all christians...not all informed christians 17th...kinda like being given orders to patrol a sector, but not what is to be expected once the platoon gets there...kinda pisses one off when one has to defend life in a fire fight...(why weren't we told goddamn it!!!!)

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

yes, but the laws in the Torah mandate that there are only certain times when you are allowed to have it off. thus, if you "connect" at the wrong time [of the month], you are "incorrectly connected". time is one of the five dimensions of the spiritual. something that is right at one time can be wrong at another, you know? so turning on a light on the sabbath is wrong, but is fine the rest of the time.

Seriously? If you as you say 'have it off' when you are not supposed to, is that a sin or something punishable by god? Never heard of that (kinda new to any knowledge on Judaism... So, yea not suprising I have never heard of it..)

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i know, but the axiomatic position of judaism is that humans are not the same as animals, because we have free will and the choice to govern our instincts. there's nothing wrong with the design itself, it is morally neutral. it is the human action that isn't.

Animals have free will and choice :/ Just as much as instincts... And we too have instincts just as much as free will... But that is a talk for a WHOLE 'nother daaay...... So basically you believe it is actions, not design.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

can *i* have teh carrot now?

*twitch twitch* Hold, up.... I am getting a growing concern that there is too much intrest by many others now for my carrot! I has teh carrot It's meh carrot! *does the hamster shuffle and patting of feet to intimdate the predators away*

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Not all christians...not all informed christians 17th...kinda like being given orders to patrol a sector, but not what is to be expected once the platoon gets there...kinda pisses one off when one has to defend life in a fire fight...(why weren't we told goddamn it!!!!)

A gun skirmish not reported :/ The people that should have informed the incoming units should be held responsible for that... So in this funky metaphore(it is one of those right? lol.) Who are the people that should have reported this in?