Did anybody refute A. Victor Garaffa article on Paul?

[InLove]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

It seems some of my compatriots are a bit unsettled with contrasting points of view. In fairness, I think anybody tends to cringe with matters that threaten their beliefs. It is a normal state of existence.

Having said this, I wish to proceed, with the understanding that I am trying to discuss this in as much of a neutral attitude of scholarship as I am able to muster. Your point of view does not threaten my faith walk, nor my outlook.
Most of the material I have already considered quite some time ago.

Hi juan--I appreciate your efforts and your point of view. I think you have made a great deal of sense. I do enjoy the conversation, actually, and I did not mean to give the impression that I feel threatened by any of this. And I look forward to your continued dialog with Excaliburton. I think our friend would be very surprised at how open-minded I really am. It's just that this particular subject is, I admit, one of my pet peeves. I know that not everyone would agree with me, but I think that far too much has already been excluded from the Chistian canon. Anti-Paulinists want to tear down even more. So many Christians seem to have such a hard time seeing others included in God's love, and I am not blaming them. But, in my opinion, there is too much division already, and it is not the fault of Paul.

Originally Posted by Excaliburton

But whether you believe Paul was a false apostle or whether you think he was just misunderstood or mistranslated, his perceived doctrine has contributed to a dispensational theology and to a climate in which sin and crime abound in the modern world.. . because if people believe their salvation is based on faith alone aside from works, there is no motivation to abstain from sin or crime. And I can tell you from personal experience that many "Christians" cannot be trusted to behave honestly because they think their faith alone gives them a free pass to heaven, irrespective of their bad works towards their fellow man. Their bumper stickers shout they are not perfect, just forgiven. Don't be too sure of that! Though you may not achieve perfection, you should at least try, as Jesus had urged.

I said I was going to leave you alone, didn't I? Well, I just can't until I address the above. I guess I cannot speak for every Christian, but I am certain that I speak for many when I say that you do not understand what happens when faith in Christ results in the work of the Spirit inside of a person. There is no "free pass" the way you describe it. If a person has the same Spirit of God inside them as Christ did--and that is the promise--then that faith produces the desire and the ability to produce good works. Maybe you have met people who misuse the label "Christian", or have not learned yet how faith and works go together, just like James and Paul.

You tell me (well, not directly, of course--but me and people like me) that I should not be sure that I am forgiven. You say I should at least try to be good. Well, I do. But I figure it is better to try and do that within the promise that Jesus Christ gave me--trust in Him, and good fruits will follow. And I have been at it for a while.

I don't usually just keep harping on something this way. But you are keep insisting that Paul was evil, and even though I respect your right to believe so surely whatever you believe, I find that I must speak up, over and over. Not for my sake, but for the sake of others.

InPeace,
InLove

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Dor

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ne_conspiracy/
There is the link.

Thank you for providing the link.I have read almost half of the article .Could somebody please give information about life history of Mr.A. Victor Garaffa .
The article often refers to Peake's Commentary on the Bible , The Interpreter's Bible ,Gospel of Jesus, JerusalemChurch,and certain theologians or interpreter's. if somebody could give more information about these books, terminology.
There was a reference in the article of a Book named ' Jacob ' in the NT, I could not find any book by this name in "New International Version".Has it some other name?
Thanks

[Excaliburton]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi juan--I appreciate your efforts and your point of view. I think you have made a great deal of sense. I do enjoy the conversation, actually, and I did not mean to give the impression that I feel threatened by any of this. And I look forward to your continued dialog with Excaliburton. I think our friend would be very surprised at how open-minded I really am. It's just that this particular subject is, I admit, one of my pet peeves. I know that not everyone would agree with me, but I think that far too much has already been excluded from the Christian canon. Anti-Paulinists want to tear down even more. So many Christians seem to have such a hard time seeing others included in God's love, and I am not blaming them. But, in my opinion, there is too much division already, and it is not the fault of Paul.



I said I was going to leave you alone, didn't I? Well, I just can't until I address the above. I guess I cannot speak for every Christian, but I am certain that I speak for many when I say that you do not understand what happens when faith in Christ results in the work of the Spirit inside of a person. There is no "free pass" the way you describe it. If a person has the same Spirit of God inside them as Christ did--and that is the promise--then that faith produces the desire and the ability to produce good works. Maybe you have met people who misuse the label "Christian", or have not learned yet how faith and works go together, just like James and Paul.

You tell me (well, not directly, of course--but me and people like me) that I should not be sure that I am forgiven. You say I should at least try to be good. Well, I do. But I figure it is better to try and do that within the promise that Jesus Christ gave me--trust in Him, and good fruits will follow. And I have been at it for a while.

I don't usually just keep harping on something this way. But you are keep insisting that Paul was evil, and even though I respect your right to believe so surely whatever you believe, I find that I must speak up, over and over. Not for my sake, but for the sake of others.

InPeace,
InLove

I never meant to imply that all or even most Christians feel that sin is permissible since they are saved by faith alone, as Paul insists and James disputes. But many Christians in my community feel that good works are optional or actually irrelevant. And they also say there is no longer any such thing as sin because the law has been abolished. . .and without the law there is no such thing as sin.

And then there are other Christians who just think they are unable to control their sins (contradicting Deu 30 8:20). They think people are intrinsically sinful and degenerate, so why even try to stop sinning. Besides, they say, "God loves sinners"!!!! Sigh!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Excaliburton

I never meant to imply that all or even most Christians feel that sin is permissible since they are saved by faith alone, as Paul insists and James disputes. But many Christians in my community feel that good works are optional or actually irrelevant. And they also say there is no longer any such thing as sin because the law has been abolished. . .and without the law there is no such thing as sin.

And then there are other Christians who just think they are unable to control their sins (contradicting Deu 30 8:20). They think people are intrinsically sinful and degenerate, so why even try to stop sinning. Besides, they say, "God loves sinners"!!!! Sigh!

Don't know what Christian community you are in, but I doubt I would recognise it if I stepped in for a visit.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Excaliburton!
I am actually very pleased to see you have not given up on this discussion.

Originally Posted by Excaliburton

I never meant to imply that all or even most Christians feel that sin is permissible since they are saved by faith alone, as Paul insists and James disputes. But many Christians in my community feel that good works are optional or actually irrelevant. And they also say there is no longer any such thing as sin because the law has been abolished. . .and without the law there is no such thing as sin.

And then there are other Christians who just think they are unable to control their sins (contradicting Deu 30 8:20). They think people are intrinsically sinful and degenerate, so why even try to stop sinning. Besides, they say, "God loves sinners"!!!! Sigh!

I understand to what you are pointing, but as I said about misinterpretation, it is part of being human. Personally, I can see a number of translations coming from the saying "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." There are those as you suggest that seem to use something like this to excuse untoward behavior, but they are not the be all and end all. Frankly, I think it is an immature understanding of the statement. Whereas I use it to mean that even though I may try, *very hard*, to be perfect, I will fall short. Thankfully my Savior is there to lift me up, teach me what I need to learn, and move on with my life. Perhaps that is an awful lot to read into a few words, but it is how I use that phrase, and I do use that phrase a lot.

It never ceases to amaze me the spectrum of interpretations that come from the teachings of Jesus. On the one hand, it demonstrates the power of individuality and the desire to throw off yokes of bondage. On the other hand, it creates a quagmire of conflict that leaves newbies and outsiders (and not a few insiders) scratching their heads wondering what all the fuss is about.

I am familiar with those to whom you point, and frankly I chalk it up to inexperience and immaturity. Earthly age has no bearing, there are 90+ year olds who still eat pablum. Guess what?, we gotta love 'em anyway. (and that's Jesus, not Paul.)

BTW, the question still stands. The answer really is crucial to which direction you are pointed:

"How does an anti-Pauline Christian note, mark and observe Easter?"

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, inhumility!

Originally Posted by inhumility

Thank you for providing the link.I have read almost half of the article .Could somebody please give information about life history of Mr.A. Victor Garaffa .
The article often refers to Peake's Commentary on the Bible , The Interpreter's Bible ,Gospel of Jesus, JerusalemChurch,and certain theologians or interpreter's. if somebody could give more information about these books, terminology.
There was a reference in the article of a Book named ' Jacob ' in the NT, I could not find any book by this name in "New International Version".Has it some other name?
Thanks

I am concerned your questions may become buried. They are valid questions. I have heard of Peake's commentary, but I know nothing about it. I know nothing of the other books and scholars mentioned. I have not heard of a "book of Jacob," certainly not in the Bible. I wonder if the book of James is what was intended? Otherwise, the story of Jacob is in the latter part of the book of Genesis as I recall.

Perhaps someone else can help you with this.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, inhumility!

I am concerned your questions may become buried. They are valid questions. I have heard of Peake's commentary, but I know nothing about it. I know nothing of the other books and scholars mentioned. I have not heard of a "book of Jacob," certainly not in the Bible. I wonder if the book of James is what was intended? Otherwise, the story of Jacob is in the latter part of the book of Genesis as I recall.

Perhaps someone else can help you with this.

Thank you

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Dor

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ne_conspiracy/
There is the link.

Dor!
Hi
Sir
I acknowledge you being well-versed in Bible.
I have read Bible in my local language.There is a verse in Bible,which if translated from my local language to English would be something like thus:
Father (My Father) who is in heaven (sky) hears me (accepts my prayers).
There is no seach facility in my local language.Would you kindly provide the reference in English Bible?
Thank you

[Dor]

First thought would be....
Matthew 6:9-159 "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.' 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
But I am not sure that is the one you were wanting?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by inhumility

Dor!
Hi
Sir
I acknowledge you being well-versed in Bible.
I have read Bible in my local language.There is a verse in Bible,which if translated from my local language to English would be something like thus:
Father (My Father) who is in heaven (sky) hears me (accepts my prayers).
There is no seach facility in my local language.Would you kindly provide the reference in English Bible?
Thank you

Which chapter and what language?

[Dor]

Thanks Q I didnt think to ask that.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Dor

First thought would be....
Matthew 6:9-159 "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.' 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
But I am not sure that is the one you were wanting?

Thanks sir,but this is not the verse I am looking for.The words of the verse are fresh in my mind but I cannot trace it in English Bible, most probably it was in the Gospels.Sorry to trouble you.
Thanks again.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by inhumility

Thanks sir,but this is not the verse I am looking for.The words of the verse are fresh in my mind but I cannot trace it in English Bible, most probably it was in the Gospels.Sorry to trouble you.
Thanks again.

Not a trouble can you remember the book or chapter or even a bit more of the verse.

[juantoo3]

Bump in honor of Mr. Garaffa's return.

[Dream]

I never saw that 'General articles' section before. I just looked over Mr. Garaffa's summary at the end of his article. I wonder whether his conclusions have changed since he posted it?