Did Moses write the frist 5 books of the bible?

sam1008 · 11-28-2007, 02:18 PM

Hey dudes, I'm writing an essay on this subject and my guess is that Moses did receive from G-d and wrote the core of the 5 books of Moses but that they were then developed and added to by priests before being finally written down in the form they are now.

Any comments and/or resources would be great.

dauer · 11-28-2007, 04:12 PM

It depends who you ask. Those applying the same criteria to the Torah as they do to other texts and observing from a detached perspective generally say no, not by Moses, although they may suggest that there was something that went back to Moses to which the myth of the revelation is linked.

The traditional Jewish myth does not suggest that priests added to and developed the Torah but that there is an accompanying oral Torah which has been and still is applied to allow Torah to fit new situations.

I, Brian · 11-28-2007, 08:01 PM

If you're talking about a process of editing then you're basically talking about Redaction Theory:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...h_torah_torah/

which is certainly not to be regarded as an accepted principle of Judaism.

dauer · 11-28-2007, 08:21 PM

I, Brian, it is pretty much accepted within all movements except for Orthodoxy which is not to say that it's treated as a foundational principles but that it appears in liberal chumashim and is sometimes referenced as one possible understanding of History within the statements of principles for the liberal movements. For example in Emet Ve-Emunah which is the Conservative movement's statement of principles it lists different views on revelation among Conservative Jews. The first is much like Orthodoxy, that it's a personal encounter that has "propositional content" and is "immediately normative, as defined by rabbinic interpretation." The other views are much different:

Some believe "...that revelation consists of an ineffable human encounter with God. The experience... inspires verbal formulation by human beings of norms and ideas... continuing the historical significance of the revelational encounter."

You can see how that middle one is a bit nuanced and allows for some varying views within it. And then finally we have the view of "revelation as the continuing discovery, through nature and history, of truths about God and the world. ... always culturally conditioned... nevertheless seen as God's ultimate purpose for creation. Proponents of this view tend to see revelation as an ongoing process rather than as a specific event."

For an even more clear statement, see the foreward of said document regarding the committee that came together to draft it: "We all accepted the results of modern scholarship. We agreed that historical development of the tradition had taken place, and that the tradition continues to develop."

That is all from the publication Emet Ve-Emunah by the Conservative movement, Conservative Judaism being the liberal movement furthest to the right. Orthodoxy, in rejecting the findings of modern scholarship, is the odd one out and by no means a yardstick by which to define what is normative for Judaism, if there even is such a thing.

Dauer

sam1008 · 11-28-2007, 09:21 PM

Thanks very much for the replies guys and the link to Bob X's article. I'll have a proper read of that in a bit. I've worn myself out for the moment reading an article in the Catholic encyclopedia about Mosaic authorship. My lecturer Rabbi Dan seems to believe in the redaction theory by the way - its just i haven't found evidence of the idea that the kernal of the books come from Moses in what i've read in his works - which is what seems to me to be the most likely thing.

bob x · 11-29-2007, 04:28 AM

Oh my, I haven't re-read "Torah Torah Torah" since I scribbled it off (Jan. 2001 I think that was?). I was meaning to rewrite it, organizing all those tangential offshoots that are jammed into parentheses, in some more readable fashion; but I never got around to it.

Chavak · 09-09-2008, 12:33 AM

Yes, Moses received the Torah from G-d, it was not added to or edited by
the kohanim.

As someone above mentioned, the Oral Torah was also given to Moses....
it fully explains the mitzvot that are mentioned in the Written Torah,
among other things.

wil · 09-09-2008, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chavak

Yes, Moses received the Torah from G-d, it was not added to or edited by the kohanim..

So Moses recorded details of his death and info on folks after his time?

Chavak · 09-09-2008, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

So Moses recorded details of his death

Yes, and it is said that he cried as he wrote about his own death...

wil · 09-09-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chavak

Yes, and it is said that he cried as he wrote about his own death...

So you don't buy into the Y, E, P, D authorship?

Chavak · 09-09-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

So you don't buy into the Y, E, P, D authorship?

No. I remember studying about that many many years ago.....I thought
that theory had been debunked? Although I must admit it is not
something I have kept up with.....

bananabrain · 09-10-2008, 02:42 PM

it hasn't been debunked as such, it's just split off into about 5 or 6 different schools of thought, some of which are actually quite close to the traditional way of thinking and others which are far more obsessed with identifying tiny little fragments of individual authors. needless to say, my views on this are on record - i describe my disenchantment with the documentary hypothesis in a number of places, from that individual statement i was asked to make a few weeks ago as well as that discussion "tilting at windmills" that i had with bob_x a couple of years back.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Dream · 09-10-2008, 04:43 PM

Could his death be a metaphor? His death was upon a mountain top (up high), whether of natural causes I cannot know. His burial was not done by mere men, and his body was hidden from men. He also wrote about his own death, which is unusual even for a prophet. It is similar to Elijah and Enoch's exits from normal life and they were never described as dying at all. So could it be a metaphor?

bananabrain · 09-10-2008, 05:34 PM

no, he's dead all right. some of the commentators explain that his grave was hidden so that it would not become a place for pilgrimage and therefore potentially idolatrous worship, a big issue at the time. we know where some of the other prophets (e.g. ezekiel) are buried, but there's no chance of them becoming the centre of idolatrous worship nowadays.

b'shalom

bananabrain

bob x · 09-12-2008, 02:05 AM

I'm not sure I understand how you are so sure "he's dead all right", when you are perfectly willing to swallow violations of common sense like him writing down his death. Do you buy Chavak's bit about him "crying" as he wrote it? (as attributed to the passive-voice non-source, "it is said...")