Did the Jews kill Jesus?

The Fool · 03-02-2004, 01:22 PM

My reading was always actually that it was not the Jews per se who were held responsible for the death of Jesus, as much as mob mentality itself.

However, remaining with the New Testament accounts, how tenable is such an idea?

Vajradhara · 03-02-2004, 04:07 PM

Namaste Brian,

well... to get the brass tacks, so to speak.. God killed Jesus... seeing as how Jesus is God and all of that sort of thing. Jesus' death was ordained by God/himself so that he could fulfill the requirement of sacrifice that He established for the atonement of sin.

personally, it's my opinion that the Jewish people are protrayed in a negative light due to the political pressure that the people were under. let's face it, you could be tried and found guilty of sedition by talking bad about the Roman Empire... there's little chance that the writers were going to incur the wrath of the Romans once more... so they simply shifted the blame from those that did the deed to the general populace.

now.. incidently, this proved to be a very valuable tactic with regards to prolestyzing the gentiles... whom Jesus wasn't sent for anyway.

arthra · 03-05-2004, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fool

My reading was always actually that it was not the Jews per se who were held responsible for the death of Jesus, as much as mob mentality itself.

However, remaining with the New Testament accounts, how tenable is such an idea?

To Baha'is Jesus was martyred as other previous Messengers of God have been martyred.... His teachings and practices threatened the religious establishment and together with the support of political authorities He was executed....

Jesus foretold His martyrdom in the following parable:

"There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him]."

- Matthew 21:33-40

In this parable the Lord of the Vinyard is God and the servants are the Messengers of God and lesser Prophets. Jesus is probably refering to Himself as the "son" in this parable.

A similar combination of ecclesiastical and political authorities as noted in Gospels combined to effect the imprisonment, mock trial and martyrdom of the young Bab in 1850 in Tabriz, Iran:

http://martyrdom-of-the-bab.123holiday.net/

- Art

Pagan-prophet · 03-11-2004, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

well... to get the brass tacks, so to speak.. God killed Jesus... seeing as how Jesus is God and all of that sort of thing. Jesus' death was ordained by God/himself so that he could fulfill the requirement of sacrifice that He established for the atonement of sin.

I concur.

Mus Zibii · 06-18-2004, 11:31 AM

It depends on what you read, how you read it, etc.

According to the gfour gospels... well, they jump from thinking in the historical, into the metaphysical, and so on. Its hard to say.

Did Jesus truly intend to destroy the temple? Symbolism says he was referring to his body, history says that the gospels were written after the destruction of the temple using the hostility towards Judaism as springboard.

LothlorienHeadRush · 06-26-2004, 12:28 AM

In my opinion, although I concur with the fact that Christ was supposed to die, I agree that the act was commited (although not in the physical sense) by the Jews. The Jews brought Christ to Pontus Pilate and requested, (because they cannot condemn a man to death) that he murder Christ. Pilate said he would not, and sent them over to King Herod. King Herod refused, and they went back to Pilate. He told them he would Chastisize him and then release him. After Pilate had him chastisized, he brought him back out to the Jews along with a murdere named Barabas. Every year, Pilate releases one criminal to the public. He now said to them, "Who shall I release? Barabas or Jesus of Nazareth?" The Jews shouted "Release Barabas!" When he did, Pilate asked them, "What shall I do with Jesus?" At this point, the Jews shouted, "Crucify! Crucify him!"

This is written in the Passion of the Bible which is most often read at Easter Mass. Although the Romans physically murdered Christ, and although Christ was meant to die, the act was requested upon by the Jews

Mus Zibii · 06-26-2004, 12:51 AM

The thing I disagree with most in that post is the characterization of Barrabbas as murderer. Its unclear when that romantization of the Passion narrative became popular, but academically speaking Barabbas would've just been another Jewish insurrectionist. The Romans (despite Mel Gibson's movie) were not the police of Judea. The Jews self-policed, and were more brutal in many ways. The Romans were concerned only with what was good for Rome.

Had the Jews wanted to kill anyone (and judging from the Jewish law Jesus would've been a textbook case) they could've done it and thought no more of it. There's even evidence of Jewish enforced crucifixion. And the apologetics that the priests took the case to the Romans as a means of easing blame is negated for exactly the same reason you pointed out. Once there the Jews again take center stage as being wholly hostile.

And Pilate was never said to release a prisoner every year. He said it was a tradition, although no evidence of such a tradition exists. This, of course, brings us to the outrageously unhistorical and often contradictory status of the gospel trial. The best resolution is found looking into historical context.

Quesocoatl · 06-26-2004, 01:02 AM

Jesus killed Jesus.

LothlorienHeadRush · 06-26-2004, 01:06 AM

Contrary to your correct reply, not only has it been stated various times throughout the above posts, but your post consists of three words and is considered in any board I have ever posted on, to be spam. Please do NOT post three word posts'. Try to at least get your point across with some real thought and a sentence or two. Thanks,

- Jay -

Mus Zibii · 06-26-2004, 01:21 AM

spoon

But seriously, I wanted to come back and add that in the canon gospels, the blame seems decidedly heaped on the Jews. So if I were replying to a secular questionnaire, I'd say the NT, Holy Writ of virtually all forms of modern Christianity, says the Jews killed Jesus. It also says there's a mountain from which the entire flat earth can be observed.

LothlorienHeadRush · 06-26-2004, 01:58 AM

The truth is, no matter what any Christian says (I myself am a strong Roman Catholic), the Holy Bible is not 100% correct. In The New Testament, all the cannon gospels somehow contridict what the other says, and to me, only portions of the NT are correct.

Quesocoatl · 06-26-2004, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LothlorienHeadRush

Contrary to your correct reply, not only has it been stated various times throughout the above posts, but your post consists of three words and is considered in any board I have ever posted on, to be spam. Please do NOT post three word posts'. Try to at least get your point across with some real thought and a sentence or two. Thanks,

- Jay -

Welcome to the jungle. Need a roadmap?

And you're welcome....Jay. I have a cousin named Jay.

Quesocoatl · 06-26-2004, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LothlorienHeadRush

The truth is, no matter what any Christian says (I myself am a strong Roman Catholic), the Holy Bible is not 100% correct. In The New Testament, all the cannon gospels somehow contridict what the other says, and to me, only portions of the NT are correct.

It is 100% correct.

If you know how to read between the lines.
Discern your own humanity from God's divinity...
or ....at least, someone else's own particular slant on
of all of that and this and that and so on.

I was told we were created in His own image.

No one has the right to judge God's own personal
rap between ...You and...He.

I, Brian · 06-26-2004, 09:11 AM

If God had already arranged for Jesus to be sacrificed, then isn't the blame entirely God's?

arthra · 06-26-2004, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

If God had already arranged for Jesus to be sacrificed, then isn't the blame entirely God's?

Personally I think God allows man choice... so man is permitted the choice of denying Messengers of God and killing them...as far as I can see this is the thrust of what is found in the Bible as well as the Qur'an.

Jesus knew His martyrdom could well be the outcome of His ministry...

"Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;"

- Luke 11:49 -50

"When they are told to follow the (Revelation) that Allah has sent down, they say: "Nay, we shall follow the ways that we found our fathers (following). "What! even if it is Satan beckoning them to the Penalty of the (Blazing) Fire?"

- Qur'an 31:21

- Art