Do these commands.....

Joedjr · 03-19-2008, 02:17 AM

.....come from the same place?

From the NASB

Joshua 10:40
Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the G!d of Israel, had commanded.

Matt 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Joe

Dream · 03-19-2008, 04:45 AM

Matthew is supposedly written with the understanding and agreement with every scripture in the Tanach. The condemnation of the world may not seem apparent at first reading, but it is present. Loving enemies is shows devotion to God, and it is to 'Heap coals of fire' on a evil person's head -- that is it makes it obvious that they deserve to die. At the same time, it should be done from the heart. There is the personal loving side, but also the 'Heaping coals' side.

In the case of Joshua 10:40, the nation that was destroyed was 'Ripe' for judgment. The darkness within humanity had been demonstrated through them sufficiently that it was time to put them out of their miserable existences. This is the same judgment God issues upon any human or nation for the same reasons and is described by Paul with the words "The wages of sin is death...." Romans 6:23. The original Christian view is that this is a big part of the purpose for the history of the world - to demonstrate the appropriateness of God's judgment. The two sentences you mentioned, Jodjr, are consistent with this.

Quote:

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Proverbs 25
21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
22 for you will heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD will reward you.

I Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Acts 24
24 After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was a Jewess; and he sent for Paul and heard him speak upon faith in Christ Jesus.
25 And as he argued about justice and self-control and future judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present; when I have an opportunity I will summon you."

China Cat Sunflower · 03-19-2008, 04:54 AM

Quote:

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."He treads the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Rev. 19:11-21

There's some NT violence for you. Jesus makes Joshua look like a puss.

Chris

Dream · 03-19-2008, 05:03 AM

Oh, C'mon China_Cat. The entire book is full of symbols. Just about everything you quoted are symbols. You're not going to tell me you have studied this stuff?

China Cat Sunflower · 03-19-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dream

Oh, C'mon China_Cat. The entire book is full of symbols. Just about everything you quoted are symbols. You're not going to tell me you have studied this stuff?

I dunno Dreamy. Are you familiar with Chick Publications?

Whether it's purely symbolic or not the idea is that God perpetuates a global holocaust for whatever reason at the end. And he isn't satisfied with just whacking everyone. Oh no. There has to be plagues and all sorts of excruciating pain to go along with it. When God hosts a genocide or a holocaust he really does it up big.

OTOH, we could just say the Revelation is purely metaphysical and Joshua is more than likely a mythological character. We know God isn't violent, that's not it's nature. But to do that you'd have to chuck almost all biblical literalism out the window- which probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Chris

Ahanu · 03-19-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Matthew is supposedly written with the understanding and agreement with every scripture in the Tanach

From what I understand, this is an example of Jesus being a revisionist. It does not agree.

“You have heard how it was said, “You will love your neighbor and hate your enemy.” But I say this to you: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on the wicked as well as on the good, and he sends down his rain on the just and the unjust” (Matthew 5:43-45).

Jesus said: “But I say this to you. . .” This is Jesus’ authority and revision.

In the past God said: “Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD” (Leviticus 19:18). Jesus is clearly changing what the text says. For He says things like "You have heard how it was said. . ." Here, in Leviticus, the text speaks of their people. However, the Lord did take grudges and vengeance against His enemies. For His enemies were Israel’s enemies. For example, there was the genocide of the Amalek. “Record this in writing, and recite it in Joshua’s hearing, that I will utterly wipe out the memory of Amalek from under heaven” (Exodus 17:14). Also, “The Lord will be at war with Amalek from generation to generation” (Exodus 17:16). It was an oath of genocide. Does this contradict Moses saying, “love your neighbor as yourself?” No, because the Lord did to the last Amalek what the Amalek would probably do to the last Israelite. The neighbor in this verse is Israel alone. In the past the Lord does not say: "You will love your neighbor as yourself because I, the Lord, love my neighbors as myself, and you must be like me." Perhaps God does whatsoever He pleases.

Jesus calls on His followers to treat everyone alike, taking the sun as their model, which God makes to shine without discrimination "on the wicked as well as on the good". It is a great tactic to use against the Romans. The victimizer is exposed to the victim’s pain. Eventually the pain is publicized to shame the enemy. Maybe this is Joshua's new way of delivering Israel. But as we know, fundamentalists during the time will not agree with this new way.

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” (Luke 6:27-38).

Dream · 03-19-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

We know God isn't violent, that's not it's nature. But to do that you'd have to chuck almost all biblical literalism out the window- which probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Here's a short synopsis of what I've seen in the Bible of God's 'Violence', China_Cat. No punches pulled!

Violence is too animal to attribute to God. On the other hand, God is not human; so to us humans he is sometimes violent. The actions taken by Joshua were a part of God's plan, which is long term and culminates in the justification of death for all sinners, among other things. It is a plan that is bigger than any individual or any nation. The nations are themselves demonstrations of bad government in preparation for the coming Theocracy. The Theocracy is the last demonstration, which will prove other related judgments. After that, the earth will be given its final form which will already have been fully justified to the survivors based upon all of our previous history. Mankind will be changed forever into something other than what it is now, perhaps something inhuman.

God is portrayed as having good will towards us but does not overvalue us. Loving God requires a very self-deprecating attitude called 'Denying oneself'(Luke 9:23). A human being has to realize that he truly is 'But dust and ashes'(Gen 18:27) in order to love God, because God does not show favoritism to any. Loving the One God is one of the most difficult things a person can do. God has systematically been proving the case that humanity is an inappropriate creation and that humanity must change, so that there will be no room for objection when God makes his move.

If anyone can prove that humanity is more than dust and ashes, then please get started doing it. The peace movement of the 60's was a dismal failure, by-the-way.

China Cat Sunflower · 03-19-2008, 10:22 PM

It's good to just be honest about things. God has a plan, and that plan involves killing a whole lot of people. Got it.

Chris

Joedjr · 03-20-2008, 01:51 AM

Hi,
As I read through the NT, Jesus never kills anyone or orders any one to be killed. Even in Revelation "the Lamb" doesn't order or carry out the wrath of G!d.

Quote:

Proverbs 25
21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
22 for you will heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD will reward you.

Quote:

The victimizer is exposed to the victim’s pain. Eventually the pain is publicized to shame the enemy

I Don't take "heap coals of fire" as a literal, could the meaning be closer to what Ahanu says here? By doing this thing you will best your enemy, or win for yourself more than what you would get, if indeed you heaped coals of fire on his head (literal).
This does have parallels to Matt 5:44 used above. Dream is that why you used the quote here?

Joe

China Cat Sunflower · 03-20-2008, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Hi,
As I read through the NT, Jesus never kills anyone or orders any one to be killed. Even in Revelation "the Lamb" doesn't order or carry out the wrath of G!d.

Isn't Jesus God? It's not his fault God is a bloodthirsty genocidal megalomaniac?

Chris

Joedjr · 03-20-2008, 03:40 AM

Hi,
looks like I made a mistake. From the NASB

Rev 17:14
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, .....

Looking at what Chris posted from Rev 19:11-21 "the Lamb" becomes the rider on the white horse.

Hmm, I guess Revelation won't help with my question. Thanks Chris

Joe

Dream · 03-20-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

I Don't take "heap coals of fire" as a literal, could the meaning be closer to what Ahanu says here? By doing this thing you will best your enemy, or win for yourself more than what you would get, if indeed you heaped coals of fire on his head (literal).
This does have parallels to Matt 5:44 used above. Dream is that why you used the quote here?

Sorry for the confusion, because I think I agree. We are not talking about literal fire, at all. I agree the proverb is talking about besting your enemies by outshining them. 'Heaping coals of fire' is a figure of speech for leaving judgment to God even in your personal matters -- trusting that God's judgment is more important than your temporary comfort. Loving your enemies is a longstanding teaching in the household of faith, going back long before Jesus was born.

Quote:

Isn't Jesus God? It's not his fault God is a bloodthirsty genocidal megalomaniac?

Chris

In Christianity Jesus is the priest who sympathizes with our weaknesses, unlike God who by definition has never felt temptation or weakness. Jesus agrees with God's plan for the earth because he is humble, but Jesus loves and sympathizes with the human race. Jesus claimed to be the successor to Moses, who was a human, but the One God can not be human! To be both the One God and human would represent a division within the One God, which would mean a lie -- chaos! The reference (below) about Jesus the priest also mentions Joshua just a few verses away, so I included them for free.

Quote:

Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day.
9 So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;
......
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;
14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

China Cat Sunflower · 03-20-2008, 03:55 AM

Jesus' will and God's will are one, aren't they? "Thy will be done," right? So Jesus doesn't get any cover on that account. Maybe he's the good cop to God's bad cop, but they're both cops. And since, speaking of cop out's, we're relegated to "filthy rag" status, why should we "love" an intolerable, ethnocentric, genocidal Deity? What do we get out of deifying the Israeli war god?

Chris

Dream · 03-20-2008, 06:49 AM

Matthew's God is consistent with Joshua's. In the first place, God is always making people suffer, wait, and worry for the sake of his higher purposes. Such is our lot, so its very difficult to appreciate God if we feel that he is unfair. In his defense, it would be ridiculous to think that the creator should be at our beck, or that he must treat us all like diamonds. Nobody is on equal terms with God, because we're just creatures that he made. As for saying God is 'Ethnocentric', that is just greener-grass syndrome.

I don't think I agree about the cop thing you mentioned. Jesus didn't have it so good when he was growing up but learned to accept God's judgment, which was not an easy process. He learned obedience by the things he suffered (Heb 5:8), which is another way of saying he learned to 'Deny himself'.

I appreciate your honest and open attitude, Chris. In one of these threads you said you'd been burned by religion. I think that happens to everybody, and hopefully it didn't set you back too much career-wise. It sounds like you've done OK for yourself, so I'm glad for you.

mee · 03-20-2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

There has to be plagues and all sorts of excruciating pain to go along with it.

Chris

and the plagues spoken of in the book of revelation are not litral illnesses ,

but they sure do effect ones that recieve them.
and those plagues of messages from Jehovah are really on going , in fact they started not long after Jesus took up his enthronement in 1914.

and we are now well along in the Lords day ,and now the GREATCROWD revelation 7;9-10 have added to those judgement messages .

oh yes, its all happening in the last days, and those plagues have effected that THIRD spoken of in the book of REVELATION .

Vision 5—Revelation 8:1–9:21

Subject: The sounding of six of the seven trumpets

Time of fulfillment: From the enthronement of Christ Jesus in 1914 to the great tribulation

That THIRD claim to be in God’s temple and have represented themselves as teachers of Christianity.

But their doctrines are far removed from Bible truth, and they continually bring God’s name into disrepute.

Those ones who have recieved those plagues , are Aptly represented by the symbolic third.

so then , guess who claims to represent the God of the bible but instead has taken on MANMADE DOCTRINES

i didnt need to look very far they were as clear as anything .