Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not? - Page 16

paganprophet · 05-25-2007, 07:46 PM

Not Baha'i. It's founder fell for the same Abrahamic myths as real history as did all the rest of the Abrahamic prophets.

Also, any religious founder who does the old Egyptian curse thing of cursing anyone adding to his vision is highly suspect of egotistical shortsightedness to say the least.

And then there's the racism of Baha'i founders showing their inability to recognize human beings when they are black Africans.

Baha'i is one of the Abrahamic faiths headed for its End Times.

Sorry.

OzAndy · 05-28-2007, 12:52 AM

Mmmm... Methinks the discussion here is heading of to a far country far away from the original thread!

To bring it back a little, in my other posts to this thread I've argued that we Abrahamic fiath people do believe in the same God.

I think we probably all have the same basic view of prophecy too.

A prophet is basically a spokesperson for God. God cn give them any message to pass on.

The classic paradigm is probably Isaiah, who I believe all of the Abrahamic faiths would agree is a prophet.

Isaiah brought messages of God's comfort, God's judgement, and God's desire for justice. Isaiah spoke about what God thought about what was happening now, as well as what might happen in the future.

The test of a prophet is time. If the message is still relevant centuries into the future and has a lasting life and impact then they are or were a prophet.

I'm not sure I agree with Saltmeister's view of prophecy being in the past, for Christians at least. Paul letters and Acts speak in a number of places about prophecy, the gift of prophecy and of Prophets.

It is true that such prophets and prphecy may not make it to the Scriptures but there is still a place for God to call men and women to speak prophetically to the church and to broader society. In this sense some people regard Martin Luther King as a prophet for instance.

Finally Paganprophet, perhaps you should find some encouragement in the fact that most of the prophets in the Bible got a hard time from their contemporaries. So there is some chance you're a prophet. The message that God gives is not usually an entirely comfotable one!!!

Blessings

paganprophet · 05-28-2007, 03:53 AM

Thanks, OzAndy. If modern prophets were to be judged by their ability to offend religious discussion forum owners and members, I think I highly qualify!

It's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it. Somebody's got to come along from God in times where the religious traditions are so corrupted as to produce religious wars killing thousands, making millions more miserable to again, "make straight the Path of God in the bewilderness."

Oh, if I could only tell you all what's at stake now. Only the whole Abrahamic religious traditions, all of them.

Soon I will have my website redone again and all will be revealed.

Saltmeister · 05-31-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzAndy

I'm not sure I agree with Saltmeister's view of prophecy being in the past, for Christians at least. Paul letters and Acts speak in a number of places about prophecy, the gift of prophecy and of Prophets.

I think I might have been misunderstood. I was saying that prophets and apostles could essentially be the same thing, in mind and attitude. The only difference being displacement in time. Prophets came before the Messiah, apostles after the Messiah.

I usually hear Muslims calling Mohammed the Prophet, but occasionally they also call him Apostle.

The meaning of "prophet" and "apostle" is largely subjective, but I reckon from a theological point of view, they are the same kind of person. They have sought God, found Him, and thereafter have spoken about Him.

An apostle might indeed have prophecies to tell, and today's world may indeed be full of prophets and apostles, but not self-proclaiming ones. They probably don't call themselves prophets or apostles and don't even know they qualify to being one. The prophets and apostles in the past may simply just have been "ordinary" people who simply happened to find God. We have simply venerated them as heroes.

We criticise the people who "worshipped" the saints, yet is not our Bible a "worship" of past saints? Heroes of the ancients?

OzAndy · 06-01-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The meaning of "prophet" and "apostle" is largely subjective, but I reckon from a theological point of view, they are the same kind of person. They have sought God, found Him, and thereafter have spoken about Him

Mostly agree with your post! The prophets were largely not self proclaimed and could often fall into other categories as well. At least some may have been of humble origins... Amos for instance describes himself as an agricultural worker.

However I think you have the emphasis upside down. Most of the Biblical prophets were found by God and did not seek God. Moses, Jeremiah and most famously, Jonah, all tried to get out of God's call.

If there is a radical difference in Christianity's understanding of God, it is that we believe God primarily seeks us. We do not primarily seek God. At the heart of Christianity is a belief that God definitively sought us out by becoming one of us as the man Jesus Christ. God seeks us, reaches down to us and not primarily the other way around.

I think in at least one of my previous posts to this thread I asked if I was right in believing that this is a different understanding to that of the other Abrahamic faiths but the question was never answered. That is, do Jewish and Islamic folk believe that God expects us to find God, or do they believe that God finds us? Or to put it in theological speak: Is God primarily the God of righteouness in heaven or the God of grace who condescends* to us?

*'condescends' is a technical theological term - it means "comes down to" and "accomodates self to" not "patronises" or "makes fun of".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

is not our Bible a "worship" of past saints? Heroes of the ancients?

Since the prophets and the saints and heroes of the Bible, either by intention or default primarily point not to themselves but to God who spoke to or empowered them, I would say no. We worship the God who raised up the heroes and saints and prophets. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this would be true for all the Abrahamic faiths. We worship God and not the saints and heroes.

Cyris Ali · 08-31-2007, 04:49 AM

God is personified in books in order that we might find affinity
with God through our humanness... but God is not a person or
some sort of great, looming authoritarian entity... does not have a gender.

All the concepts we use to describe God... Love and Truth
...Peace... Mercy....Wrath

these are universal concepts and no religion has claim to them.
They are embodied in a collective concept which we call God.

And God is God.

No matter what you call God.

madeinrussia89 · 10-20-2007, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amica

Peace to all.

There is no church out there that does not allow prayers towards a statue representative of Jesus. Christian Orthodox and Catholics, for instance, go even further and worship the statues of the Virgin, pray at the icons, collect skeleton relics that are believed to have healing powers, etc. This contradicts Judaism and the whole concept of Christianity's claim that Jesus' message (NT) fullfilled the OT (Jesus said that he came not to change the laws of OT but to fullfill them).

The polytheism did not rest on Christianity alone. I think Islam has been under its attack for some while too with the rise of various sects. However, majority of Muslims out there still worship Allah/God as Qur'an teaches.

Orthodox Christians and Catholics DO NOT worship statues. We (Orthodox) do use icons to focus our prayer towards God, we show respect to what they (icons) represent, but we do not " worship " them. This is a common misinterpretation. Worship is due to God and God alone.

The relics of saints are holy things because the saints were holy.

No Christian worships statues, that is so far from the truth that I have no idea where you are getting it.

And " No Graven Image " was before God became flesh. You can see the Son, you can paint him. You could NOT see God before this, so naturally, you cannot paint a rendering of him can you.

madeinrussia89 · 10-20-2007, 07:00 AM

And, on the issue of prayers to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels.

When you pray to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels, you are simply asking them to pray to God on your behalf, sort of like putting in a good word for you. The prayers of the righteous are very important in Orthodox Christianity in that they may be "heard" so to speak more quickly.

To further explain, usually Christians say to one another in a time of strife " pray for me " it is the same with the angels and the saints and the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary), we are simply saying " pray for me", not " I'm worshipping you, here are my pleas ".

flowperson · 10-21-2007, 02:27 AM

Hello All, and welcome to CR Madeinrussia.

There was an impotant meeting of learned scholars this past week in Los Angeles. The purpose of the meeting was to confront problematic passages in the sacred texts of the Abrahamic Religions and to continue a process of reconciliation and learning among the three faiths, something long overdue IMHO. As you will see in the accompanying article, this is a mult- year effort and an ongoing project which includes some very prominent scholars and educators. I see it as a ray of light and hope for a better future for us all.

flow....

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...nes-california

BlaznFattyz · 10-22-2007, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Christians say to one another in a time of strife " pray for me " it is the same with the angels and the saints and the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary), we are simply saying " pray for me", not " I'm worshipping you, here are my pleas ".

Praying for someone and praying through someone are two different things. man should not pray through any created being as saints or angels or creatures (all fellow servants). Prayer, as well as worship, is to God alone thru the Spirit.

madeinrussia89 · 10-23-2007, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

Praying for someone and praying through someone are two different things. man should not pray through any created being as saints or angels or creatures (all fellow servants). Prayer, as well as worship, is to God alone thru the Spirit.

I'm well aware of that. We aren't praying " through " anything. Point blank.

BlaznFattyz · 10-23-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

I'm well aware of that. We aren't praying " through " anything. Point blank.

I believe Praying to as well. Prayer through or to anything is a form of worship, and that is for God alone. I'm curious, why would you think otherwise?

madeinrussia89 · 10-24-2007, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

I believe Praying to as well. Prayer through or to anything is a form of worship, and that is for God alone. I'm curious, why would you think otherwise?

Because asking someone or something to pray for you isn't worshipping him/her/it.

BlaznFattyz · 10-24-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Because asking someone or something to pray for you isn't worshipping him/her/it.

in all fairness, you didnt say "asking someone or something", you said "When you pray to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels". asking and praying are not even the same, just to be clear. somehow i think you believe asking and praying to god and created beings are the same and interchangeable words maybe, but i think they are not, and i find that very interesting. created beings are servants just like us, and as followers of God we are not to bow, pray to, or worship anything other than God.

Neemai · 10-24-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

in all fairness, you didnt say "asking someone or something", you said "When you pray to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels". asking and praying are not even the same, just to be clear. somehow i think you believe asking and praying to god and created beings are the same and interchangeable words maybe, but i think they are not, and i find that very interesting. created beings are servants just like us, and as followers of God we are not to bow, pray to, or worship anything other than God.

Isn't this just a difference between Catholic and Protestant approaches? I assume that many Christians of a Catholic persuasion will pray to Mother Mary, or great Saints to ask for their blessings or help in serving God. As long as you did not mistake these persons as being God, then where would be the problem in praying to them?

... Neemai