Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not? - Page 17

LeoSalinas22 · 10-24-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Because asking someone or something to pray for you isn't worshipping him/her/it.

Luke 20...They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

welcome russian!
imho, asking or praying to the dead is not a good thing at all. for Jesus Himself says that we all die or "sleep" and are to be ressurected in the future. even a mighty prophet like Moses is sleeping and awaiting resurrection. i am sure you have read this verse before:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

so remember, don't pray to the dead, pray to the living Almighty God. and God be with you...

LeoSalinas22 · 10-24-2007, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

in all fairness, you didnt say "asking someone or something", you said "When you pray to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels". asking and praying are not even the same, just to be clear. somehow i think you believe asking and praying to god and created beings are the same and interchangeable words maybe, but i think they are not, and i find that very interesting. created beings are servants just like us, and as followers of God we are not to bow, pray to, or worship anything other than God.

you know, blazn, for the first time i agree with you, though i know you don't care if i do or if i don't, but i agree with you completely! sole worship belongs to God Himself. are you saying that the trinity doctrine doesn't apply anymore? just curious, thanks and God be with you...

LeoSalinas22 · 10-24-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neemai

Isn't this just a difference between Catholic and Protestant approaches? I assume that many Christians of a Catholic persuasion will pray to Mother Mary, or great Saints to ask for their blessings or help in serving God. As long as you did not mistake these persons as being God, then where would be the problem in praying to them?

... Neemai

as i mentioned before to russia89, praying to the dead is a big no no. i can handle praying to Jesus but even then i am kinda "iffy" on that one becuase He said to pray to God in the "our Father in heaven" prayer, never to Himself, namely Jesus. thanks and God be with you...

Neemai · 10-24-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

as i mentioned before to russia89, praying to the dead is a big no no. i can handle praying to Jesus but even then i am kinda "iffy" on that one becuase He said to pray to God in the "our Father in heaven" prayer, never to Himself, namely Jesus. thanks and God be with you...

So Jesus's mother is dead in your opinion? No eternal life in Heaven for her untill resurrection day? Not that I'm a Christian, but that seems a strange thought to me. I'm trying to get my head around the different perspectives.

With prayer being primarily defined as a form of communication (as opposed to always being worship) if people where "alive" would you still believe in completely avoiding it? Maybe God would appreciate you speaking to His angels or beloved ones??

From Wikipedia: Prayer is the act of attempting to communicate, commonly with a sequence of words, with a deity or spirit for the purpose of worshiping, requesting guidance, requesting assistance, confessing sins, or to express one's thoughts and emotions. The words of the prayer may take the form of a hymn, incantation, or a spontaneous utterance in the praying person's words.

... Neemai

BlaznFattyz · 10-24-2007, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

are you saying that the trinity doctrine doesn't apply anymore? just curious, thanks and God be with you...

when i say God, know that I am saying God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And the only way that I come approach the heavenly Father, is through the Son who is Salvation and Grace and is in heaven with the Father whom the Father has appointed over all things, and the only way I know to trust Jesus whom the Father sent to reconcile me, forgive my sins, and be saved by his resurrection is to be transformed, be borne again, and let the Spirit work in my life whom Christ has sent to perfect me for the glory of God.

Neemai · 10-24-2007, 05:58 PM

After some searches on internet, I found these links useful in giving the Catholic perspective:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
http://bfhu.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/why-do-catholics-pray-to-mary/

I don't wish to spark off some kind of on-going argument on this. Just to say that there is more than one approach for those who are interested.

Best wishes to all,

... Neemai

LeoSalinas22 · 10-24-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

when i say God, know that I am saying God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And the only way that I come approach the heavenly Father, is through the Son who is Salvation and Grace and is in heaven with the Father whom the Father has appointed over all things, and the only way I know to trust Jesus whom the Father sent to reconcile me, forgive my sins, and be saved by his resurrection is to be transformed, be borne again, and let the Spirit work in my life whom Christ has sent to perfect me for the glory of God.

sorry, my bad...

Saltmeister · 10-25-2007, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

When you pray to the Virgin Mary, the saints, and the angels, you are simply asking them to pray to God on your behalf, sort of like putting in a good word for you. The prayers of the righteous are very important in Orthodox Christianity in that they may be "heard" so to speak more quickly.

To further explain, usually Christians say to one another in a time of strife " pray for me " it is the same with the angels and the saints and the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary), we are simply saying " pray for me", not " I'm worshipping you, here are my pleas ".

To be honest, I cannot recall having ever heard that explained better than the way you just explained it.

madeinrussia89 · 10-26-2007, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neemai

Isn't this just a difference between Catholic and Protestant approaches? I assume that many Christians of a Catholic persuasion will pray to Mother Mary, or great Saints to ask for their blessings or help in serving God. As long as you did not mistake these persons as being God, then where would be the problem in praying to them?

... Neemai

Yes, that's the point I was trying to get across (very inarticulately).

We know these people aren't God, we aren't worshipping them, we show respect to them and pray for their help.

madeinrussia89 · 10-26-2007, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

Luke 20...They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

welcome russian!
imho, asking or praying to the dead is not a good thing at all. for Jesus Himself says that we all die or "sleep" and are to be ressurected in the future. even a mighty prophet like Moses is sleeping and awaiting resurrection. i am sure you have read this verse before:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

so remember, don't pray to the dead, pray to the living Almighty God. and God be with you...

It's kind of offensive to put it " hey, you guys just pray to the dead". Like we can do that to just anyone, like someone off the street.

But from a christian perspective, though their body may be dead, their souls are not. We will live eternally with salvation in one way or another.

We pray to the Saints for their prayers to be with us also, to the Virgin Mary. It's kind of like a helping hand. I don't know how else to explain that to you.

Are you familiar with the statement " We are more alive after we take our last breath than we ever were during life " ?

Which means, who better to ask to pray for us than the Saints or the mother of Jesus Christ who have already found the way?

BlaznFattyz · 10-26-2007, 11:16 PM

Prayer is a form of worship. Prayer to someone acknowledges deity, that is why prayer should only be directed to God, for only God knows the heart of man and only the Holy Spirit knows these deep spiritual things. and as far as saints are concerned, they are those sanctified by the blood of Christ, and we are not to pray to fellow servants. for those called to be saints, we are the body of Christ, but Christ is the head, and the head of Christ is the Father, so we have a direct connection to the Father through Christ who is our high priest, and this is where are prayers need to be directed.

madeinrussia89 · 10-26-2007, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

as i mentioned before to russia89, praying to the dead is a big no no. i can handle praying to Jesus but even then i am kinda "iffy" on that one becuase He said to pray to God in the "our Father in heaven" prayer, never to Himself, namely Jesus. thanks and God be with you...

You are kinda iffy on prayers to Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ is still part of God, there is nothing wrong with that.

It's not like Jesus would insert his own name in a prayer to God the Father.

madeinrussia89 · 10-26-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

Prayer is a form of worship. Prayer to someone acknowledges deity, that is why prayer should only be directed to God, for only God knows the heart of man and only the Holy Spirit knows these deep spiritual things. and as far as saints are concerned, they are those sanctified by the blood of Christ, and we are not to pray to fellow servants. for those called to be saints, we are the body of Christ, but Christ is the head, and the head of Christ is the Father, so we have a direct connection to the Father through Christ who is our high priest, and this is where are prayers need to be directed.

Prayer is much more than I think you are giving it credit. As Neemai quoted, prayer is not only worship to a diety, but can be requesting guidance from a spirit. When I pray to the Theotokos, I am not worshipping her, I am asking her to pray to God on my behalf, although I do show her great respect because she is the mother of God.

The only thing I worship is God, I am not worshipping the Saints or the Theotokos, just God.

This is probably one of the hugest fundamental gaps between Protestantism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy.

BlaznFattyz · 10-27-2007, 01:23 AM

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

I think you are giving to much emphasis on praying to saints, when we ourselves are saints if we trust in and have been sanctified by Jesus Christ. Jesus is our high priest, he is our way to the Father. It is the Holy Spirit that intercedes for us, not the saints--there is nothing in between.

Neemai · 10-27-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

I think you are giving to much emphasis on praying to saints, when we ourselves are saints if we trust in and have been sanctified by Jesus Christ. Jesus is our high priest, he is our way to the Father. It is the Holy Spirit that intercedes for us, not the saints--there is nothing in between.

With respect Blazn, it's okay for you to think like that, but unless you are in possession of some superior spiritual vision in comparison to other people, I don't see why it has to apply to everyone else? Logically I see no problem in communicating with saints via prayer, as long as your devotional focus is towards God as madeinrussia has stated above?

The Catholic church and a large amount of Christian followers around the globe follow this method, so how can we be sure they are wrong in what they are doing?

... Neemai