Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not?

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Marsh

Nice analogy.

I can see what you mean, and to an extent I definitely agree with you. As a Christian, I know many other Christians who object to Islam and Judaism (particularly Islam because it's so pop culture to have an opinion these days) for no logical reason; simply because they are not Christians. …

From the outside, it sure does look like Christians, Muslims and Jews share much in common, and so I could easily imagine that a Buddhist could look at the interactions between us and take it as petty squabbling. But from where I'm standing it is not nearly that trivial. …

The differences between us don't exist because we've given ourselves labels; we've subscribed to labels because of the irreconcilable differences between us.

But the implications of the cross-religious blinds causes gaps in appreciation. The Old Testament praises as no other a Persian King who acted righteously - would that *any* leader would act as wisely today.

Jesus was found in the manger by, from all understanding, three Zoroastrians following their own prophecy and yet Zoroastrians also have links to Hinduism and both to Buddhism.

If Jesus was born ~5BC then the year 666 was 661AD and a year of catastrophe for Islam when the two sects of Sunni and Shi formed and this in a religion which abhors devision and muslim-on-muslim strife.

If these things are real then there are a lot of implications to our blindness. In every religious tradition there are diverse approaches. Some emphasize the personal savior quality of the Founder of their religion while others hold to the teachings and mission and some just try to live the life of virtue. These exist in parallel among all the religions to my understanding.

[shawn]

Originally Posted by Muhammad-Khalifa

Eventhough we (Muslims, Christians and jews) have many different beliefs by addressing our All-Mighty God differently , by debating on whether, or whether not Christ is son of God, etc... Is it not so, that he (our God) revealed to us his message by all three holy books (Qur'an, Gospel and Torah), Is it not so that God is 'Most mercifull', 'All-wise', 'All-knowing', 'All-mighty', etc, Is it not so that there is a last day (the day of judgement), Is it not so that there will be a torment (Hell-Fire) for the wrong doers and there will be a reward (Paradise) for the riteous.

As a Muslim my belief is that Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (P.B.U.Them) were all Prophets and messangers of God. They were all serving there and our Creator, and they were all given a message by God to reveal to mankind. My belief (as a muslim) is that, that message was simply to worship God and him alone, for he is the only one worthy of that worship, and to obey him and his messages.

I have read that when there were Jews living in around Egypt (I am not sure as to the date, but it was after Mohammad ) they would us the word Allah to refer to Hashem.

My opinion (as an ex-christian) is that there is one Creator/Source, but nobody has ever really understood who or what that is.
There has been many interactions throughout mankind's history with "higher beings", who came from the sky.
I think that we are being toyed with.
Earth is like a zoo of sorts and more advanced beings have been messing with us for millenium, perhaps right from the start (whenever that really was).

Heaven or hell, they do not exist except in the feverish dreams and fears of religious fanatics, but they serve as most excellent carrot and stick for inducing large groups of people to think in certain ways.
The same for the concept of a final judgment.

[ARMyers]

There is one True God. All else are idols. Unless one knows the Father in Truth, one believes in a different diety. Although many study the same books or trace back their line to the same ancestry, many believe their own concepts of who the Father is rather than understanding who He actually is. And so even in Christianity, there are many different Gods but only one True Yahweh Elohim ("He who will be the Mighty Ones"). My Father is not the same as most mainstream Christians, let alone other religions. It is your duty to search out this Truth.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by smkolins

If Jesus was born ~5BC then the year 666 was 661AD and a year of catastrophe for Islam when the two sects of Sunni and Shi formed and this in a religion which abhors devision and muslim-on-muslim strife.

If you're trying to make a connection between this 666 and the mark of the Beast in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, be aware that the mark refers to a name and not a time.

Those may have been Zoroastrians, or may not have been. In any case, what's the significance? They figure into the Bible for a couple of chapters, and are never mentioned again.

The Bible praises lots of people who weren't Israelites. It also criticizes and denounces many people who were. Again, what's the significance? Does praise for a Persian king carry any deeper meaning?

This is precisely the reason why this cross-religious stuff falls short: the same idea takes on a different significance depending on one's perspective. You may call it blindness, but I call it honesty.

[ARMyers]

Originally Posted by Marsh

If you're trying to make a connection between this 666 and the mark of the Beast in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, be aware that the mark refers to a name and not a time.

Those may have been Zoroastrians, or may not have been. In any case, what's the significance? They figure into the Bible for a couple of chapters, and are never mentioned again.

666 does refer to a name. There have been many interpretations of what name(s) it could be. I have heard that it represents the line of emperors after Christ to Constantine as well as other things. Which would add to the man with the iron rod in Chapter 12 being Constantine and the true Church (or woman) fleeing to the wilderness after the birth of this man while the Red Dragon or apostate church (also called the Whore of Babylon later) is cast down after reigning in the (political) heavens for 1260 days (years) and controlling the stars (kings) in the sky and is now on earth (amongst the people) to wage war upon the woman (true church).

The mark of the beast is different from the number. It has been said that the mark of the beast is the cross and at a time in the dark ages, men could not buy or sell without a cross marked on their forehead and their hand showing that they were Catholics. This practice is still used today on Ash Wednesday.

The second point you made Marsh is also true. The Israelites were constantly rebelling against the Lord. The Lord also moves through the nations, meaning reigns over all nations (Psalms 47:8). The Lord sets them up and lets them fall according to his will and specific purposes. Daniel 10 shows this (with Cyrus) as Gabriel, one of the only angels mentioned by name, tells Daniel that he was struggling against the Prince (or King) of Persia (Cyrus as mentioned at the beginning of the Chapter) for 21 days and needed help from Michael. First of all, the least of the angels could kill one hundred thousand men in one night, so this is not talking about a physical struggle. This passage is talking about a persuasive struggle, for the one thing an angel cannot do is interfere with free will (see Jacob, Lot, Balaam, Moses, etc.). Thus, the angel Gabriel was influencing the King of Persia (Cyrus) to do the Lord's will.

The Bible is scoped to only information pertinent to salvation. If everything was said, there would be too many books to read in a lifetime.

[Friend2men]

No, because the Christian God is said to have raised Jesus from the dead, but the Qur'an denies this

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Friend2men

No, because the Christian God is said to have raised Jesus from the dead, but the Qur'an denies this

Denial, is not proof...

Oh, and a warm welcome to IO Friend...look forward to your thoughts.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Friend2men

No, because the Christian God is said to have raised Jesus from the dead, but the Qur'an denies this

F2M, does monotheism mean that you only believe in one God or that only one God exists?

My whole life I had assumed the second definition and was flabbergasted to learn that here at IO many didn't agree with this interpretation and adopt the first definition.

Which leads to the question, how many all-powerful and omniscient Creators can there be?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

F2M, does monotheism mean that you only believe in one God or that only one God exists?

My whole life I had assumed the second definition and was flabbergasted to learn that here at IO many didn't agree with this interpretation and adopt the first definition.

Which leads to the question, how many all-powerful and omniscient Creators can there be?

I bet he tells you there is no God but Allah, and Mohhamad is his prophet.

I would tell you there is no God but "Allah" (one of many names), and Mohhamad is "a" prophet.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I bet he tells you there is no God but Allah, and Mohhamad is his prophet.

I would tell you there is no God but "Allah" (one of many names), and Mohhamad is "a" prophet.

But the question isn't about prophets, its about God(s). I'm curious to see how F2M interprets this.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Friend2men

No, because the Christian God is said to have raised Jesus from the dead, but the Qur'an denies this

Please cite relevant passage.

[OzAndy]

Originally Posted by Friend2men

No, because the Christian God is said to have raised Jesus from the dead, but the Qur'an denies this

Hi F2F as I understand it people of Islamic faith believe that we Christians and also Jews are "people of the book". That our Bible though corrupted is a revelation of God. If that is so, though our faith may in your terms, be in error, doesn't it mean that we believe in the same God?

[Friend2men]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Denial, is not proof...

Oh, and a warm welcome to IO Friend...look forward to your thoughts.

Hi there,Q1, Thanks for your warm welcome. Salam 'Aleikhum!

In my referring to the resurrection, I was giving a quick off-the-cuff answer to a potentially complex question (not knowing whether anyone is still monitoring this board). Now that I see that a couple of folks are here, I will answer with my more typical long-winded style.

The answer can be given from 2 perspectives, that of the worshiper and that of God.

Worshiper perspective:

When you regard the ACT and EVENT of worship, I think you are not actually saying anything about God as He really is, but about a worshipers' mental state; their imagined representation of the deity, inner narrative about Him etc.

So, from this worshiper perspective, it quite obvious that many monotheists are worshiping differently. Hence, Muslims and Christians do not "WORSHIP" the same God because what is in their minds God is so different.

God’s perspective.

Now consider the question and answer from God’s point of view. The first point to make is that this is a bit presumptuous! So, perhaps the truest answer to the question is that ‘God knows what is the truth of the matter,’ He being the source of truth, And therefore, God may reveal the answer to this question, and any others, those who seek Him and ask for it.

For those who do not ask Him as the One Teacher for answers, and who are willing to fantasize or reason about God’s mind, or listen to other teachers on the topic:

I sense that most such people will not find it difficult to imagine that God regards His many worshipers and thinks: ‘Despite their many differences in beliefs, in vocabulary and doctrines about Me, they are all worshiping Me in their own ways.’

And so, among people sharing that particular image about God, the question can be answered in the affirmative.

I believe it is also possible that different spiritual entities are channeling assorted images of 'God' into the minds of to respective persons. If this is the case, then I would say that people are worshiping different gods, by virtue of being guided by different spiritual sources.

Next comes another angle to throw in. A number of bible scholars have pointed out that the ACTUAL or correct biblical position DIFFERS from the commonly held view that the bible is monotheistic; in truth the biblical stance is better described as henotheism. In plain terms that means there are many gods, but one Who is supreme and worthy of worship in the cult of Yahweh.

IN the Sinai revelation it is He who should be worshipped and the others forsaken. This does not deny the other deities’ existence, but rejects worship of them. (See my comment above about different spiritual sources.)

Next, in the Bible one also discovers an interplay of multiple names for God, some of which seem to be attributes of one deity, while others are arguably incompatible and mutually exclusive, representing assorted deities.

Thus, the discovery of the true name of God (ha shem), in contrast to varying opinions and vocabularies about His Name, is really the nub of the issue in our topic. And this points the way to the correct answer. In my own faith, this is somewhat an esoteric matter, revealed inwardly and personally by God (see book of Revelation), and not stated openly.

Next point: In very early pre-counciliar Christianity, one could ask the same question we are discussing, and apply it this way: Do orthodox Jews and the recent converts to the Jesus sect worship the same God?

The issue comes to a climax beginning in John 8.58 (Jesus asserts ‘Before Abraham, I AM’ implying He is not speaking as a mortal man here). This is followed by the string of ‘I AM’ assertions in John 10 and continuing more or less to chap 19. ‘I Am’ alludes to the self-presentation of Yahweh in Exodus. The gospel of John seems to depict Jesus as being ‘One’ with God, the TRUE ‘I AM’ deity. This perhaps implies something contrary about the validity of Yahweh.

In Matthew 26:63ff, Jesus’ self-professed claims to be God’s Son and Right-Hand-Man are statements regarded by the Jewish high priest as blasphemy and necessitating Jesus’ execution. So, clearly the orthodox Jews, compared to converts who are accepting this high Christology, are not worshiping the same God. At least not in their minds.

In sum, I would say that the most important thing to know is that God-- in whatever cultural expression He is worshiped-- is always Just, Good, Merciful and responsive to everyone who really wants the truth and isn't putting on a worship-show to impress. This we find by experience.

[Friend2men]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Please cite relevant passage.

Hi there Netti,

Glad to oblige. A few of the many bible texts are these:

(Act 2:24) whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

(Act 2:32) God raised up this Jesus, of which we all are witnesses.

(Act 4:10) be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this name does this man stand before you whole.

(Act 10:40) but God raised Him up the third day and showed Him openly,

(Act 13:30) But God raised Him from the dead,

(Act 13:37) But He whom God raised again saw no corruption.



AS for Qur'anic denial of this, I am relying on Sheikh Ahmed Deedat whose writings are found at Jamaat.net

F2M

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Friend2men

Hi there,Q1, Thanks for your warm welcome. Salam 'Aleikhum!

In my referring to the resurrection, I was giving a quick off-the-cuff answer to a potentially complex question (not knowing whether anyone is still monitoring this board). Now that I see that a couple of folks are here, I will answer with my more typical long-winded style.

The answer can be given from 2 perspectives, that of the worshiper and that of God.

Worshiper perspective:

When you regard the ACT and EVENT of worship, I think you are not actually saying anything about God as He really is, but about a worshipers' mental state; their imagined representation of the deity, inner narrative about Him etc.

So, from this worshiper perspective, it quite obvious that many monotheists are worshiping differently. Hence, Muslims and Christians do not "WORSHIP" the same God because what is in their minds God is so different.

God’s perspective.

Now consider the question and answer from God’s point of view. The first point to make is that this is a bit presumptuous! So, perhaps the truest answer to the question is that ‘God knows what is the truth of the matter,’ He being the source of truth, And therefore, God may reveal the answer to this question, and any others, those who seek Him and ask for it.

For those who do not ask Him as the One Teacher for answers, and who are willing to fantasize or reason about God’s mind, or listen to other teachers on the topic:

I sense that most such people will not find it difficult to imagine that God regards His many worshipers and thinks: ‘Despite their many differences in beliefs, in vocabulary and doctrines about Me, they are all worshiping Me in their own ways.’

And so, among people sharing that particular image about God, the question can be answered in the affirmative.

I believe it is also possible that different spiritual entities are channeling assorted images of 'God' into the minds of to respective persons. If this is the case, then I would say that people are worshiping different gods, by virtue of being guided by different spiritual sources.

Next comes another angle to throw in. A number of bible scholars have pointed out that the ACTUAL or correct biblical position DIFFERS from the commonly held view that the bible is monotheistic; in truth the biblical stance is better described as henotheism. In plain terms that means there are many gods, but one Who is supreme and worthy of worship in the cult of Yahweh.

IN the Sinai revelation it is He who should be worshipped and the others forsaken. This does not deny the other deities’ existence, but rejects worship of them. (See my comment above about different spiritual sources.)

Next, in the Bible one also discovers an interplay of multiple names for God, some of which seem to be attributes of one deity, while others are arguably incompatible and mutually exclusive, representing assorted deities.

Thus, the discovery of the true name of God (ha shem), in contrast to varying opinions and vocabularies about His Name, is really the nub of the issue in our topic. And this points the way to the correct answer. In my own faith, this is somewhat an esoteric matter, revealed inwardly and personally by God (see book of Revelation), and not stated openly.

Next point: In very early pre-counciliar Christianity, one could ask the same question we are discussing, and apply it this way: Do orthodox Jews and the recent converts to the Jesus sect worship the same God?

The issue comes to a climax beginning in John 8.58 (Jesus asserts ‘Before Abraham, I AM’ implying He is not speaking as a mortal man here). This is followed by the string of ‘I AM’ assertions in John 10 and continuing more or less to chap 19. ‘I Am’ alludes to the self-presentation of Yahweh in Exodus. The gospel of John seems to depict Jesus as being ‘One’ with God, the TRUE ‘I AM’ deity. This perhaps implies something contrary about the validity of Yahweh.

In Matthew 26:63ff, Jesus’ self-professed claims to be God’s Son and Right-Hand-Man are statements regarded by the Jewish high priest as blasphemy and necessitating Jesus’ execution. So, clearly the orthodox Jews, compared to converts who are accepting this high Christology, are not worshiping the same God. At least not in their minds.

In sum, I would say that the most important thing to know is that God-- in whatever cultural expression He is worshiped-- is always Just, Good, Merciful and responsive to everyone who really wants the truth and isn't putting on a worship-show to impress. This we find by experience.

Ah, the Elephant and the 11 blind men trying to describe the elephant...

So, if we "blind men" got together and explained our unique perspectives of what/who God is, would we all come away with a clearer overall picture of "God"?