Do you call yourself a Christian?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Juan

Unless you are this new person Zag as an alter-ego, which I doubt based on the differences in the two styles of writing, I don't see you putting words in my mouth. You have had moments that border on arrogance, I am not telling you anything you don't already know. But I have not seen that displayed since I joined this discussion. This really has been a fantastic exchange of views...until a certain air of superiority popped up in just the last few posts, and not by your hand. Look closely, look at how I was accused of various views, falsely. More than once. The poster began with an arrogantly false presumption and built on it from there, in an effort to...what? make me look a fool? Why?

First, I don't do the alter-ego thing. There was a time many years ago when I first started posting to a BB that I tried that. It seemed like a fun idea, but I very quickly became bored with it. It's hard enough to write, plus it felt dishonest.

Next, I understand that I come off as being arrogant. I'm often sarcastic, occasionally fascetious, crude, lewd, and nothing is sacred enough to me that I won't have some fun with it. OTOH, though, I try very hard to be real. I'm a complex person, and I try to convey how I actually am. I'm no Buddha, man! When I get pushed I push back, as you know.

Lastly, I think if people would allow each other a little space to express themselves without getting all defensive or self-righteous we would all, in time, work our shoulder chips down to managable size. One problem is that people outside traditional spirituality have been rubbed raw in ways that take time, patience, and understanding to work through. When they finally have the opportunity to turn the tables and be the one to say "I'm right and you're wrong" they can't resist. If well-meaning traditionalists could just find it in their hearts to turn the other cheek a couple of times on that I think the frustration could dissipate. Or, I could be completely wrong.

Chris

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

First, I don't do the alter-ego thing. There was a time many years ago when I first started posting to a BB that I tried that. It seemed like a fun idea, but I very quickly became bored with it. It's hard enough to write, plus it felt dishonest.

This is good. I see a tremendous difference between "did I read you to say this...?" and "you said this!" (when I pretty obviously did not)

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Next, I understand that I come off as being arrogant. I'm often sarcastic, occasionally fascetious, crude, lewd, and nothing is sacred enough to me that I won't have some fun with it. OTOH, though, I try very hard to be real. I'm a complex person, and I try to convey how I actually am. I'm no Buddha, man! When I get pushed I push back, as you know.

Not a whole lot different than myself, I simply try as best I know how to maintain a modicum of decency, around here especially. I am not above pushing back either, as I am certain you are aware.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Lastly, I think if people would allow each other a little space to express themselves without getting all defensive or self-righteous we would all, in time, work our shoulder chips down to managable size. One problem is that people outside traditional spirituality have been rubbed raw in ways that take time, patience, and understanding to work through. When they finally have the opportunity to turn the tables and be the one to say "I'm right and you're wrong" they can't resist. If well-meaning traditionalists could just find it in their hearts to turn the other cheek a couple of times on that I think the frustration could dissipate. Or, I could be completely wrong.

I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong on this...but I don't have the time or aptitude to play psychologist to every individual either. It is my experience, here and in the world at large, that arrogance is like fire. Surrender to it and it only gets worse. It only responds to arrogance, like the schoolyard bully. One can continue coughing up their lunch money everyday and go hungry, or get enough cajones to punch the dolt in the face and put him in his place. Standing up for oneself, family, nation and religious belief against arrogant opposition, is most decidedly correct in my opinion. Spirit has not convicted me otherwise. In fact, spirit has led me to this in spite of the many sermons I have heard through the years to the contrary. Christians, or those followers of any legitimate faith, are *not* doormats to be walked all over by upstarts that think some amalgamation of everybody will solve the woes of the world. Where such people see heavenly bliss and Edenic paradise...I see Armaggedon and WWIII. That's prescient vision for ya!

[China Cat Sunflower]

It is my experience, here and in the world at large, that arrogance is like fire. Surrender to it and it only gets worse. It only responds to arrogance, like the schoolyard bully. One can continue coughing up their lunch money everyday and go hungry, or get enough cajones to punch the dolt in the face and put him in his place. Standing up for oneself, family, nation and religious belief against arrogant opposition, is most decidedly correct in my opinion. Spirit has not convicted me otherwise. In fact, spirit has led me to this in spite of the many sermons I have heard through the years to the contrary.

Well, you're probably right. I don't do a whole lot of cheek rotation myself! It's funny that we're using the word arrogant. All my adult life I've been accused of being arrogant. Most of the time I think it's because people don't like that I think my way is better than what they're trying to get me to do. Of course they think their way is better too, but I'm the one who's arrogant.

Chris

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong on this...but I don't have the time or aptitude to play psychologist to every individual either. It is my experience, here and in the world at large, that arrogance is like fire. Surrender to it and it only gets worse. It only responds to arrogance, like the schoolyard bully. One can continue coughing up their lunch money everyday and go hungry, or get enough cajones to punch the dolt in the face and put him in his place. Standing up for oneself, family, nation and religious belief against arrogant opposition, is most decidedly correct in my opinion. Spirit has not convicted me otherwise. In fact, spirit has led me to this in spite of the many sermons I have heard through the years to the contrary. Christians, or those followers of any legitimate faith, are *not* doormats to be walked all over by upstarts that think some amalgamation of everybody will solve the woes of the world. Where such people see heavenly bliss and Edenic paradise...I see Armaggedon and WWIII. That's prescient vision for ya!

What would Jesus do?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

What would Jesus do?

This isn't aimed at anyone, but...yeah, what would Jesus do?

I find it interesting how some folks will accept the literal interpretation of all kinds of stuff in the Bible- no matter how whacky or improbable, but when it comes to that "love your enemy" stuff...nah, he didn't really mean that. Take up the cross? Sure. God hates fags? Sure. Sun standing still, global deluge, dudes that lived 900 years, literal creationism? Heck yeah, because it says so. Love your enemies...uh, no. Amazing how obsessed with the authoritarian stuff people are. Ten Commandment monuments: gotta have 'em. Civilization as we know it will collapse...my gosh!!! How about a beatitude monument? Uh...no.

Chris

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Well, you're probably right. I don't do a whole lot of cheek rotation myself! It's funny that we're using the word arrogant. All my adult life I've been accused of being arrogant. Most of the time I think it's because people don't like that I think my way is better than what they're trying to get me to do. Of course they think their way is better too, but I'm the one who's arrogant.

Ah, but as the Preacher reminds us, there is a time and a purpose...

Arrogance for the raw sake of arrogance in pretty obviously out of place. But try telling that to the next arrogant butthead that gets in your face, and see how far it takes you...

If one wishes to draw inference from natural law, then force must be met with force. Whether unmovable object or immeasurable force, something must give. One can surrender, roll over, play dead, and let the opposition do their happy dance on your head...or you can do something about it, even if futile. Nothing says "sucker" like premature surrender. At least those that go down fighting earn the respect of their victors.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Cyberpi!

Originally Posted by cyberpi

What would Jesus do?

Good question. Since I am not Jesus, I can't answer it. Seems to me the Aramaic idiom that Jesus used refers to not beginning a hateful thing with one's neighbor...but that if a neighbor begins a hateful thing, one has the right, duty and obligation to nip it in the bud. Of course, that translation requires looking into the cultural context...along with a stiff dose of common sense...which means it is not an interpretation that is widely held. Christians were never meant to be doormats, and that is *not* what Jesus taught.

Nor would I expect, in accord with this teaching, for any other legitimate religion to play the role of doormat either.

Does that answer the question well enough?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Ah, but as the Preacher reminds us, there is a time and a purpose...

Arrogance for the raw sake of arrogance in pretty obviously out of place. But try telling that to the next arrogant butthead that gets in your face, and see how far it takes you...

If one wishes to draw inference from natural law, then force must be met with force. Whether unmovable object or immeasurable force, something must give. One can surrender, roll over, play dead, and let the opposition do their happy dance on your head...or you can do something about it, even if futile. Nothing says "sucker" like premature surrender. At least those that go down fighting earn the respect of their victors.

Yep. The big ones eat the little ones, so the little one's gotta be fast. That's the law of the fish: you better move your ass.

I like my ego. My ego works for me. Everybody's telling me I gotta give up my ego. Why? So someone else can control me? I don't think so brother.

Chris

[juantoo3]

but when it comes to that "love your enemy" stuff...nah, he didn't really mean that.

Thank you sir, can I have another. *Smite*

Thank you sir, can I have another. *Smite*

Thank you sir, can I have another. *Smite*

Thank you sir, can I have another. *Smite*

Thank you sir, can I have another. *Smite*

Thank you sir, can I have another. *Smite*

Thank you sir, can I have another. *Smite*

You're right! This makes so much more sense! Gee, what waaaas I thinking???

Thank you sir, can I have another. *Smite*

...

Context...I can love my enemies all day long...just as soon as they lower their weapons. I can tend their wounds, I can feed them, I can help raise their families, I can treat them as a neighbor, maybe even a brother...

But raise a weapon and threaten mine, and all bets are off. I am not Christ, and I don't play Him on TV.

[juantoo3]

Love it, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I like my ego. My ego works for me. Everybody's telling me I gotta give up my ego. Why? So someone else can control me? I don't think so brother.

ROFLMAO...Thank you! Thank you so much for giving words to a thought I have long held!

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well, my point really is that if a person is not going to consider context, just take everything straight out literal and stick to the "because it says so" mentality, how come the literal interpretation of "love your enemies", "turn the other cheek" gets a pass?

Chris

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Well, my point really is that if a person is not going to consider context, just take everything straight out literal and stick to the "because it says so" mentality, how come the literal interpretation of "love your enemies", "turn the other cheek" gets a pass?

I do look at context, and I do not take it all literal, and I explained the cultural idiom (figure of speech) in post 141 addessed to Cyberpi. So I guess I'm not the one to ask. That's probably why my answers piss so many people off...

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I do look at context, and I do not take it all literal, and I explained the cultural idiom (figure of speech) in post 141 addessed to Cyberpi. So I guess I'm not the one to ask. That's probably why my answers piss so many people off...

Right. Well, I realize that Pi was referencing your quote, but I think I made clear that my response wasn't aimed at you. I know who the literalists are, and I don't just lump everyone into one basket.

Chris

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Right. Well, I realize that Pi was referencing your quote, but I think I made clear that my response wasn't aimed at you. I know who the literalists are, and I don't just lump everyone into one basket.

You did. Fair enough. And Thanks.

[wil]

On the whole love your enemy thing...

I teach Sunday school typically with Middle Schoolers and High Schoolers. We live in an interesting area around DC, some come from innercity or edge of city schools, gun violence, drug dealing, living at the edge is common, others come from quite safe, upper middle-upper income neighborhoods. All in all a great bunch of kids, the diversity is amazing and the issues they face are so different. Some looking at scholarships and colleges, others trying to get to school safely and board up their houses from the last break in.

We discussed bullying and solutions. Now we've got some toughs and wanna be toughs, kids who I know are quite different when not in our building, so it makes the discussions awful interesting as well.

But one kid says he used to have problems with bullying and harrassment, but it has all gone away. Because when someone says something to him, he stands there and says, "It's ok for you to think that" I was floored.

This was a kid that 'never listened' and always acted out in class. But here he is repeating and using something I taught four or five years ago when teaching elementary kids... We did and exercise where they paired up and said whatever they wanted and the response was to look at the individual with love, practice seeing the Christ in everyone, knowing G-d is involved in every situation and calmly saying "It's ok if you thnk that". My kids were pretty good at getting pretty rough and nasty trying to break the others view...they enjoyed playing both sides...but I never realized this child took that class to heart and was able to use it over and over in school. He said that they don't see reason to pick on him if he doesn't respond...and other kids have utilzed similar techniques...

Love your enemy is a powerful tool....but you have to use it.