Do you call yourself a Christian?

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

The point where the heart and head meet is often referred to as the conscience, which can be cultivated and trained, or it can become seared to insensitivity through repeated rationalization (justification) of committing hurtful acts. (See Romans 2, especially verses 13-16.)

Anything like Scientology's techniques of "searing the conscience?"

Nah, just the idea that as our society became more hi-tech we would be drawn to that which would round off the corners a bit and be a little more human. He wrote this back in the eighties before the internet. Now we see just that happening, people want more real human moments.

Peace
Mark

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by earl

Hi Mark. Coming back to study a more contemplative Christianity out of a long study of Buddhism, I found I could relate to Christianity only via a nexus of hesychasm, Eckhart, and some of the wonderful gnostic gospels of Nag Hammadi-much there to overlap with Buddhist outlook and practice. I, too, tend to be skeptical as to the Nicean decision by committee, ("God so loved the world he didn't send a committee ") as to not embracing some of these gnostic writings-think it was primarily organizational politics given that the gnostic view tended to undermine the orthodox hierarchical and centralized view of Jesus-allowing more readily for building of a religious institution. You may find a number of interesting articles by James Cutsinger, professor of religion at U. of South Carolina, including this 1 re hesychasm at his site:

htp//:www.cutsinger.net/pdf/yoga.pdf

have a good one, earl

Thanks brother Earl!
This looks like an interesting lead

Mark

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Mark and Juan:

I absolutely agre with you both on mythos. It is not false, and as I have stated elsewhere here, it is built around kernels of truth in such artful fashion that it becomes a focus for the long-term beliefs of cultures. But things are changing as we write to each other.

People now demand proof. They now demand rational explanations. They demand to know what really happened. And if things cannot be rendered as such, then the facts are spun and manipulated to suit the desires of the powerful and deceitful. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing or acceptable by any means, but it is increasingly what is.

That sort of approach takes all surprise, imagination, and blissful romance from life over the long term. That is something that I do not embrace...but it is increasingly a fact that with each generation more and more people view life as the former and not the latter. For some life becomes more of a game to be manipulated and exploited, rather than a series of inspirational stories to cushion the bumps and tears of surprise and spontaniety that real life brings to us all, whether joyful or sad.

Emotionally I tend towards tradition, rationally I tend towards scientific reason for guidance. It's like many of us are slowly being torn in half emotionally and psychologically. I believe that we all must be courageous in our own ways to contend with that.

flow....

Verywell: proof and rational scientific reason... as requested -

"God said,

.





...and there was light."

No matter how it is expressed, it is still Genesis 1:3

Have a Merry Christmas.

v/r

Joshua

[flowperson]

Most of us liberal arts and/or business majors didn't make it past trig or college algebra. I'm not sure whether this is a genuine iteration of the G-d of numbers or not...so if we could get some sort of an explanation in English of what this represents, Q , then we could also enter your discussion. Does it have something to do with photon energy transfers or something ?

flow....

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Paladin

... I think there are possibilities behind our arguments of black and white that would give us shades of colour beyond what we could imagine now.

Metaphorically, I understand this to mean that G-d in total is beyond our ability to fully comprehend (while how often I hear others entertain the idea that they "know" what G-d has in mind...).

Originally Posted by Paladin

What are we to know, and how shall we live?

The best we know how with what we are given to understand.

Originally Posted by Paladin

I had an experience years ago that literally tore away everything I thought I knew. My faith was torn apart, pride crushed, understanding fled from me leaving me bereft in a desert place. After that, really bad stuff started to happen.

Certainly that is one of the assigns of life that is most difficult to understand, why bad things happen to good people. And I don't have an answer. I believe G-d will not hand us anything we cannot handle if we look to Him, but that is taken on faith. I have had my own challenges and trials to my faith, and I have watched as others grew or lost in faith. In some sense, we are all blind leading the blind. We make decisions we hope, trust and have faith in as being right, well, good and proper; and pray that it all works out for the best in the end.

This, in the presumption that we have not lost or given up faith, or surrendered to cynical antagonism.

Originally Posted by Paladin

Although I am not trying to evoke pathos here, my point is that a deeper understanding of what hypostatic union really is in relation not just to Christ, but to all of us might give us a clue as the truth of His sacrifice.

I'm afraid this is outside of the realm of my understanding.

Originally Posted by Paladin

Understand I do not set myself up as one who understands, but I feel a deep blankness in regard to these truths that has yet to be revealed.

I don't mind seekers, in that we share much. Those who "KNOW!", scare the living shi...ummm, daylights out of me.

Originally Posted by Paladin

I don't remember the author of the saying;
I once saw a tree as a tree, a mountain as a mountain and a river as a river...

Something tells me that our best understanding is like that. Maybe on a large scale, even after these last two millennia Mankind is only now as a group ready to enter the "Dark Night" and only our arrogance slows the pace.

I can appreciate this.

Originally Posted by flowperson

I absolutely agre with you both on mythos. It is not false, and as I have stated elsewhere here, it is built around kernels of truth in such artful fashion that it becomes a focus for the long-term beliefs of cultures.

I think I have addressed this elsewhere too. It seems endemic to humanity, in conflating and confusing messages and messengers. And it certainly seems to stand to reason, that all civilizations of historic antiquity (from Sumeria on) seem to make use of their mythos to teach morality to their populace. And certainly it seems, (on a surface level to a sceptic) that simple fabricated propaganda could be used to move and herd the masses, especially if held in the guise and authority of religion.

Somehow though, I can't help but wonder if this is putting the cart before the horse. It doesn't take into account the development of religion previously, or at an individual level. Why do only "some" people see ghosts? Why do only some people hear other's thoughts. Why do only some people have prescient dreams? Why are only some people allowed a glimpse into "the light?" Why are only some people capable of astral projection?

I believe these things to be gifts, that teaching is useless without first having the genetic gift of inborn ability.

Originally Posted by flowperson

People now demand proof. They now demand rational explanations. They demand to know what really happened. And if things cannot be rendered as such, then the facts are spun and manipulated to suit the desires of the powerful and deceitful. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing or acceptable by any means, but it is increasingly what is.

I can go along with this, but I see a bit more besides. Maybe people do demand to know what really happened (as if such can be guaranteed presented verbatim), but in my experience if "they" do not like what they find, they twist it to make it more palatable anyway. Spin may well come from sources of authority, goodness knows the Royal Houses of the West in combination with the Vatican used spin to their advantage for well over a thousand years. We in the West take separation of church and state for granted now, but the historical norm has always been church hand-in-hand with state. But individuals are only too happy to spin unto themselves as well, given the New Age opportunity.

Originally Posted by flowperson

For some life becomes more of a game to be manipulated and exploited, rather than a series of inspirational stories to cushion the bumps and tears of surprise and spontaniety that real life brings to us all, whether joyful or sad.

I see this and agree. Where this damage is most prolific is within the theological community. It seems to me the more one delves into the subject (specifically the manuscripts that compose the Bible), the more jaded one often comes away. I want to believe these are isolated instances, of people giving in to selfish desires of wealth or fame, but it seems more and more prevalent as time goes on. The harder one seeks to remove the magic, the less miraculous the story seems (to overstate the obvious). And the less magical and miraculous, the less relevent it seems.

Originally Posted by flowperson

Emotionally I tend towards tradition, rationally I tend towards scientific reason for guidance. It's like many of us are slowly being torn in half emotionally and psychologically. I believe that we all must be courageous in our own ways to contend with that.

I can relate. I have my personal experiences to keep me in check, and they frequently do when I wander or stray too far afield.

On some level this is about science and religion, about logic and wonder. We too often confuse the two, when they seldom truly meet. The drive for "fact" is driven by the one side that can *only* see fact, to whom magic and miracle are creations of an overactive imagination, to whom mystical experience must be recreatable in a laboratory on demand.

And this ignores the very reality that magic and miracle are beholding to no human, and operate on their own schedule, a schedule that is seldom rational and rarely logical. The "IS" will continue along just fine with or without human intervention. Or human understanding, for that matter.

Cheers!

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Most of us liberal arts and/or business majors didn't make it past trig or college algebra. I'm not sure whether this is a genuine iteration of the G-d of numbers or not...so if we could get some sort of an explanation in English of what this represents, Q , then we could also enter your discussion. Does it have something to do with photon energy transfers or something ?

flow....

It is a derivation of Planck's law of black body radiation. The last equation is the spectral radiance: energy per second, per area, per solid angle, per frequency... as a function of frequency and temperature.

Planck's law of black body radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[earl]

Hey Juan-as to your comment re "New Age" beliefs-to me the chief cautionary note in them is that so often they serve to gratify one's ego wishes, one's sense of self, when (& I mean this at least semi-seriously), a good religious or spiritual foundation should encompass the need to frustrate that very thing to achieve what contemporary religion writer, Karen Armstrong, meant when she said that to her religion was not about what you believed, but how you were changed. I believe I posted this quote of Carl Jung at this site before. He actually was quoted in Good Housekeeping magazine of all places in an interview just days before he died. When asked if he believed in God, he answered he not only believed, he knew-then added:

"God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my wilful path violently and recklessly, all things which upset my subjective views, plan, and intentions, and change the course of my life for better or worse." earl

[flowperson]

Juan... As you so accurately pointed out, I believe that we may have detailed the hidden rift between the two brothers that goes back so far in time; so therefore, it follows that this is a reflection of a piece the jigsaw puzzle that is our basic natures from the very first times that we were truly human. Joseph Campbell's many books on roots anthropology, and Zechariah Sitchin's works on Sumer/ Akkadian root civilizations will take you into this mindset gradually ( ignore his general theories and plow the details for the good stuff ). Enkidu/Gilgamesh?

Thanks cyberpi... I knew some bright engineer out there would know, While I don't know much about higher level math, I did some lucky guessing when I recognised some of the notations, Thanks for the link, I'm reading a patent now on neutrino to photon energy transformations and transfers. Like I said, I recognised some of the notation. Right now I'm doing a lot of head work on trying to inderstand why the Planck length exists and why it is such an impenatrable barrier. If you want the Pat. number, let me know and I'll pm it to you.

flow....

[flowperson]

Hi Earl:

Or as I like to put it, people plan...G-d laughs. He sure knows what he's talking about.

flow....

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Paladin
Although I am not trying to evoke pathos here, my point is that a deeper understanding of what hypostatic union really is in relation not just to Christ, but to all of us might give us a clue as the truth of His sacrifice.
I'm afraid this is outside of the realm of my understanding.

Juan,
How clumsy of me to write so poorly about such a rich subject! I will undoubtedly be taken to task by the orthodox among us, but what if Arius was right? And what if further that Christ being the union of human and Divine (Hypostatic Union) is something we should aspire to?
What if Christ's sacrifice meant so very much more than the pedagogical idea we were given in church, for in the final analysis, what exactly is our original sin but the idea that we are separate? Is this not the root cause of our evil, and I use the translation from the aramic to mean evil means "not yet ripe"
So we have failed again and again because in our little tiny minds we are seperate, there is this and that, object and subject, what is mine and what is yours and I will kill and often do to protect that mighty illusion.
Are not all our hands bloody because of this grand, stupid, error?
But look, I have rambled on again and perhaps said too much. But this is what haunts my thinking every day, and into the night.

Peace

Mark

[flowperson]

Thanks Mark:

It all makes a grisly sort of sense to me also. The separate and unequal impulse has caused a lot of blood and terror with it over the millenia, and it still seems to be effective in doing so. In a world hurtling towards unfication and empire based upon commercial connections, what happens to the spiritual ? It tends to become lost in the swirl. And repetitive and ritualistic use of the traditional understandings do not seem to make much of a difference in ending the carnage.

I always feel good for a short time when the messages for peace are issued by the PR organs of major religions at this time of year, but soon after New Year's it seems to become the same ol', same ol' real quickly.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

It is a derivation of Planck's law of black body radiation. The last equation is the spectral radiance: energy per second, per area, per solid angle, per frequency... as a function of frequency and temperature.

Planck's law of black body radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Correct, the birth place of light.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Paladin!

Originally Posted by Paladin

I will undoubtedly be taken to task by the orthodox among us,

Well, this is the "liberal board," this should be a suitable place for such discussion. Afterall, you are exchanging views with one who is at least sympathetic to the orthodox cause.

Originally Posted by Paladin

but what if Arius was right? And what if further that Christ being the union of human and Divine (Hypostatic Union) is something we should aspire to?

Well, that's the problem with "what if" questions, they do tend to keep people awake at night.

I do not know that Arius *was* right, or wrong for that matter. The whole Gnostic tradition is just a scad outside the realm of my comfort zone, for no reason in particular. What is the old saying, "fear of the unknown?" I don't know that I fear Gnosticism so much as it just seems foreign and uncomfortable to me. It doesn't sit right, I can't seem to digest it.

Obviously there are others who deem Gnosis a valid path, and it is not mine to say yes or no for them. But I must say yes or no for myself, and while I am mildly intrigued, I am not sufficiently so to actively pursue the philosophy.

The part I have most difficulty with in your statement above is the part of "aspiring" to this G-d / man union, as though "just any ol' body" could, or maybe even should, which inevitably leads to equating our self with the Divine. Perhaps the wisest understand that this is not the genuine meaning...but the common belief among common people is the distortion of either elevating their own persona / ego, or lowering the value of the ministry and person of Jesus. Or both. Perhaps I misunderstand...it certainly happens. But this is what it seems I have experienced on a number of occasions.

Originally Posted by Paladin

What if Christ's sacrifice meant so very much more than the pedagogical idea we were given in church, for in the final analysis, what exactly is our original sin but the idea that we are separate? Is this not the root cause of our evil, and I use the translation from the aramic to mean evil means "not yet ripe"

I think I understand what you are saying, and even appreciate it to a point. However, after eating of the Tree of Knowledge, the way was deliberately blocked by G-d to the Tree of Life. When we fell, regardless of why, we separated from G-d, true. G-d, for reasons only "He" can know, made things so that fallen man could not "easily" return to Him. This "hypostatic union" you speak of, may very well not even be meant for a "common human." Certainly not in the way I usually hear it promoted. Such union with the Divine is a rather rare occurance; there are only so many prophets, buddhas and messiahs, while there have been how many billions of common folk just trying to get by? What I wonder, is if the way is meant for a common person to presume a gift I know I have not been granted? (It feels like taking something that doesn't belong to me, stealing after a fashion...)

Originally Posted by Paladin

So we have failed again and again because in our little tiny minds we are seperate, there is this and that, object and subject, what is mine and what is yours and I will kill and often do to protect that mighty illusion.

I want to agree with you, it would make my world so much easier. But I see apples and oranges. I see roosters and suns. I fail to see how categorizing within our mind, however that process may be distorted or polluted, in any way associates with making oneself Divine. Our separation is by the acts of Adam, if we may use the Monotheist Edenic Mythos. It happened long ago and the process is out of our hands. Done is done, one cannot be "just a little bit" pregnant. We do have choice, G-d allows us that. We can choose to draw closer to Him (or not)...but the implication that we can become Him just doesn't sit well in my craw.

Originally Posted by Paladin

Are not all our hands bloody because of this grand, stupid, error?

Our hands are bloody because we must eat. Our hands are bloody because nature - beautiful, lovely, grand and exquisite nature - says we must. G-d created nature in all of it's glory and said "It is good." Now I expect to draw fire for saying too much...

Originally Posted by Paladin

But look, I have rambled on again and perhaps said too much. But this is what haunts my thinking every day, and into the night.

All seekers have thoughts that haunt them.

Else, they would cease to seek.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Paladin!

Well, this is the "liberal board," this should be a suitable place for such discussion. Afterall, you are exchanging views with one who is at least sympathetic to the orthodox cause.


Well, that's the problem with "what if" questions, they do tend to keep people awake at night.

I do not know that Arius *was* right, or wrong for that matter. The whole Gnostic tradition is just a scad outside the realm of my comfort zone, for no reason in particular. What is the old saying, "fear of the unknown?" I don't know that I fear Gnosticism so much as it just seems foreign and uncomfortable to me. It doesn't sit right, I can't seem to digest it.

Obviously there are others who deem Gnosis a valid path, and it is not mine to say yes or no for them. But I must say yes or no for myself, and while I am mildly intrigued, I am not sufficiently so to actively pursue the philosophy.

The part I have most difficulty with in your statement above is the part of "aspiring" to this G-d / man union, as though "just any ol' body" could, or maybe even should, which inevitably leads to equating our self with the Divine. Perhaps the wisest understand that this is not the genuine meaning...but the common belief among common people is the distortion of either elevating their own persona / ego, or lowering the value of the ministry and person of Jesus. Or both. Perhaps I misunderstand...it certainly happens. But this is what it seems I have experienced on a number of occasions.


I think I understand what you are saying, and even appreciate it to a point. However, after eating of the Tree of Knowledge, the way was deliberately blocked by G-d to the Tree of Life. When we fell, regardless of why, we separated from G-d, true. G-d, for reasons only "He" can know, made things so that fallen man could not "easily" return to Him. This "hypostatic union" you speak of, may very well not even be meant for a "common human." Certainly not in the way I usually hear it promoted. Such union with the Divine is a rather rare occurance; there are only so many prophets, buddhas and messiahs, while there have been how many billions of common folk just trying to get by? What I wonder, is if the way is meant for a common person to presume a gift I know I have not been granted? (It feels like taking something that doesn't belong to me, stealing after a fashion...)


I want to agree with you, it would make my world so much easier. But I see apples and oranges. I see roosters and suns. I fail to see how categorizing within our mind, however that process may be distorted or polluted, in any way associates with making oneself Divine. Our separation is by the acts of Adam, if we may use the Monotheist Edenic Mythos. It happened long ago and the process is out of our hands. Done is done, one cannot be "just a little bit" pregnant. We do have choice, G-d allows us that. We can choose to draw closer to Him (or not)...but the implication that we can become Him just doesn't sit well in my craw.


Our hands are bloody because we must eat. Our hands are bloody because nature - beautiful, lovely, grand and exquisite nature - says we must. G-d created nature in all of it's glory and said "It is good." Now I expect to draw fire for saying too much...


All seekers have thoughts that haunt them.

Else, they would cease to seek.

My friend,

Should you draw fire for expressing yourself, you won't stand alone

I understand your discomfort and will not try to press my vision further. What I have come to understand about God's Holy Son rests in my own heart and I will have to answer for it. I find no censure in your words and see that your own vision is genuine and based in love, and find nothing with which to find fault.
Peace

Mark

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Paladin!

Originally Posted by Paladin

My friend,

Should you draw fire for expressing yourself, you won't stand alone

I understand your discomfort and will not try to press my vision further. What I have come to understand about God's Holy Son rests in my own heart and I will have to answer for it. I find no censure in your words and see that your own vision is genuine and based in love, and find nothing with which to find fault.
Peace

Mark

I could say much the same for you, sir. I have come to respect your views, even when I disagree.

I am the visitor here on this board. If you are not free to press your vision here, that would be contrary to the heart and spirit, not to mention intent and vision, of this site. It is not my site or my board to run, and my views should not delimit any boundaries. I can as easily look away, or not exchange views, as I frequently do.

Attitude has a great deal to do with my choice to participate.