Do you call yourself a Christian?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Juan

In fairness, I find myself torn on the issue of Jesus at many turns. On this though, I'm afraid I lean towards a bit different understanding. Jesus took on or bore / beared all human sins, as scapegoat and sacrifice, not that he himself was "sinful." He could not fulfill sacrificial requirement had he been simply another sin"full" human. His was another day and age, and a different cultural paradigm. I find so many that try to transpose him into a modern context even when contemplating the historical person. Some dare to consider Jesus as no more than a "common" man and even dare equate themselves to him. At the very least, he was an exceptionally uncommon man.

I honestly don't understand this. Wait now. I understand the theory, but it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand why Logos would take on this limited, primitive, Pagan role. Why would It come to be yet another Pagan avatar with levitical overtones? You said that Myth doesn't equate to something false. I agree. So it doesn't bother me that Jesus would be cast as the ultimate hero of every culture the authors thought important at the time. But for me to now accept an ancient anachronism at face value seems rediculous. I just can't do it. I can't just decide to believe. Belief, to me, involves a proving process. I'm not looking to argue this point, just wanted to say how I think about it.

Now, if what you imply is true, and herein lies my struggle, then the sacrifice of Jesus is either meaningless or untrue. Further, and much more importantly, the resurrection did not happen, and the promise of afterlife is a lie. Consequently, for a Christian, doubt is cast upon the entire Bible (certainly the whole of the New Testament). The implication is that Christianity is built upon a false pretext...and I fail to understand how something like Christianity could succeed so well for so long if it were built upon false pretext...unless G-d does not exist.

See where I am going with this?

I had that problem for a while too. Well, a long while. I now accept that it's not important that the myth be historically factual. The power lies in the mythos, not it's historicity. But if I don't subscribe to the historicity, am I still a Christian? I'm an admirer of Jesus' philosophy. I'm a devotee of the Logos Christ. But I can't connect the man with the cosmic diety he's supposed to be. I like them both, but I can't see them as one entity.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Myth does not necessarily equal false.

<paladin bows deeply to Juan>
I had an experience years ago that literally tore away everything I thought I knew. My faith was torn apart, pride crushed, understanding fled from me leaving me bereft in a desert place. After that, really bad stuff started to happen.
Although I am not trying to evoke pathos here, my point is that a deeper understanding of what hypostatic union really is in relation not just to Christ, but to all of us might give us a clue as the truth of His sacrifice.
Understand I do not set myself up as one who understands, but I feel a deep blankness in regard to these truths that has yet to be revealed.
I don't remember the author of the saying;
I once saw a tree as a tree, a mountain as a mountain and a river as a river...

Something tells me that our best understanding is like that. Maybe on a large scale, even after these last two millennia Mankind is only now as a group ready to enter the "Dark Night" and only our arrogance slows the pace.

Peace

Mark

When I was almost thirty years old a series of unfortunate events which I didn't see coming destroyed my life as I then knew it. I lost everything including my career and my self respect. I was thrown into complete limbo, contemplated suicide daily, and had to start over completely from scratch. It's funny, looking backI can now see how the events following that disaster were the seeds of everything I have now that I cherish. At the time it seemed that I was flogging along in total darkness at the complete and utter whim of malevolent fate, but what seemed to be random events worked out to set me on my present path, and for that I'm forever grateful.

That said, I'm very cautious about taking things for granted because I really, really don't want to get pruned like that again! The other effect is that I now take things seriously that I once took for granted, but I also totally laugh at some other things that I would have been serious about back then. Among those things that I laugh about are serious, heavy duty philosophies and religious inclinations. I found out how karma really works, and it's not that quid pro quo stuff I thought. I also found out that it doesn't hurt to just say I don't know.

Anyway, I appreciate what you said. It makes more sense than I can explain here.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Thanks cyberpi... I knew some bright engineer out there would know, While I don't know much about higher level math, I did some lucky guessing when I recognised some of the notations, Thanks for the link, I'm reading a patent now on neutrino to photon energy transformations and transfers. Like I said, I recognised some of the notation. Right now I'm doing a lot of head work on trying to inderstand why the Planck length exists and why it is such an impenatrable barrier. If you want the Pat. number, let me know and I'll pm it to you.

flow....

I believe considering the Heisenberg principle might help you in your endeavor, Flow. Using Planck's length in division with particle mass, prevents time or space from sequential event partitioning, hence the impossibility of determining a system of measure. Both location and action, position and momentum are required knowledge, but with light both can not be obtained simultaneously. It becomes a "catch 22" or circular exercise in logic.

"To travel from a to b one must leave point a. But how can one leave point a to get to b, if one does not know where point "a" begins and ends?

God, I love star trek...

v/r

Josh

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I honestly don't understand this. Wait now. I understand the theory, but it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand why Logos would take on this limited, primitive, Pagan role. Why would It come to be yet another Pagan avatar with levitical overtones? You said that Myth doesn't equate to something false. I agree. So it doesn't bother me that Jesus would be cast as the ultimate hero of every culture the authors thought important at the time. But for me to now accept an ancient anachronism at face value seems rediculous. I just can't do it. I can't just decide to believe. Belief, to me, involves a proving process. I'm not looking to argue this point, just wanted to say how I think about it.

2 Corinthians 3-4 talks about taking away the veil and beholding as in a mirror, transformation from the Ministry of Death to the Ministry of Life. Jesus demonstrated this transformation we are to make by mirroring the sacrifice/scapegoat (Ministry of Death--not showing mercy and forgiveness) to us and demonstrating how to make the transformation away from death and sacrifice to one of mercy, life, and forgiveness (Ministry of Life.) The "taking away the veil" is spoken of as taking away the misunderstanding associated with the Ministry of Death.

Jesus had to come as the sacrifice/scapegoat in order to show what we transforming from, and how to pass over from death to life through love and forgiveness.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I used to call myself a Christian, but you all have convinced me I'm not. See, I thought that because I so admire Jesus' philosophy, and because I'm ethnically Christian I qualified, but now I know better. I thought maybe, in some circuitous fashion I was working my way back around it. Maybe I would find a way for all the other stuff to fit and make sense, but, based on what I've read here I think I need to disabuse myself of that idea. So I've decided not to try anymore. I'll just be what I am.

Chris

Please don't give up...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Prober

Please don't give up...

Don't sweat it. He never denied Christ. He just isn't ready to sing it to the roof tops. And that is what bothers him a whole lot, and frankly I don't blame China Cat for that. Not everyone is a preacher. Some are simply quiet and do things in their own way. And this is deja vu, if I have ever seen it, wow.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I believe considering the Heisenberg principle might help you in your endeavor, Flow. Using Planck's length in division with particle mass, prevents time or space from sequential event partitioning, hence the impossibility of determining a system of measure. Both location and action, position and momentum are required knowledge, but with light both can not be obtained simultaneously. It becomes a "catch 22" or circular exercise in logic.

"To travel from a to b one must leave point a. But how can one leave point a to get to b, if one does not know where point "a" begins and ends?

God, I love star trek...

v/r

Josh

Josh:

Beam me up...er...down ?

flow...

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Don't sweat it. He never denied Christ. He just isn't ready to sing it to the roof tops. And that is what bothers him a whole lot, and frankly I don't blame China Cat for that. Not everyone is a preacher. Some are simply quiet and do things in their own way. And this is deja vu, if I have ever seen it, wow.

Thanks, Q.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

When I was almost thirty years old a series of unfortunate events which I didn't see coming destroyed my life as I then knew it. I lost everything including my career and my self respect. I was thrown into complete limbo, contemplated suicide daily, and had to start over completely from scratch. It's funny, looking backI can now see how the events following that disaster were the seeds of everything I have now that I cherish. At the time it seemed that I was flogging along in total darkness at the complete and utter whim of malevolent fate, but what seemed to be random events worked out to set me on my present path, and for that I'm forever grateful.

Chris

There is a song that inspires me; it's about when things get tough, but I don't know what it's called, lol! (It's a country tune)

The lyrics go like this:

"I've been around and I've found that
walking is easy when the road is flat,
but those danged ole hills will get you every time.
The good Lord gave us mountains, so we could learn how to climb"


One of the sweetest feelings we get is when a mountain is presented before us, and the overwhelming satisfaction of reaching its peak, and overcoming its obstacles.


Much Love,


~James~

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Seattlegal!

Originally Posted by seattlegal

2 Corinthians 3-4 talks about taking away the veil and beholding as in a mirror, transformation from the Ministry of Death to the Ministry of Life. Jesus demonstrated this transformation we are to make by mirroring the sacrifice/scapegoat (Ministry of Death--not showing mercy and forgiveness) to us and demonstrating how to make the transformation away from death and sacrifice to one of mercy, life, and forgiveness (Ministry of Life.) The "taking away the veil" is spoken of as taking away the misunderstanding associated with the Ministry of Death.

Jesus had to come as the sacrifice/scapegoat in order to show what we transforming from, and how to pass over from death to life through love and forgiveness.

Thank you for the wonderful explanation, this never occured to me in this depth...I simply knew Jesus stood as the final sacrifice, without which there is really nothing special about Christianity. Certainly nothing to form the basis of a religion.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I don't understand why Logos would take on this limited, primitive, Pagan role. Why would It come to be yet another Pagan avatar with levitical overtones? You said that Myth doesn't equate to something false. I agree. So it doesn't bother me that Jesus would be cast as the ultimate hero of every culture the authors thought important at the time. But for me to now accept an ancient anachronism at face value seems rediculous. I just can't do it. I can't just decide to believe.

Interesting observation, and considering how much of Christianity was cast in the general direction of Pagan Gentiles, I find little to wonder about. I do leave the door open a bit and wonder about whether the "Paganization" was done primarily during the time of Jesus and immediately after (most likely by Paul), or whether it was a function and / or by-product of Nicea and after.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Belief, to me, involves a proving process. I'm not looking to argue this point, just wanted to say how I think about it.

I suspect any genuine student, any sincere seeker, would say belief involves a proving process.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I had that problem for a while too. Well, a long while. I now accept that it's not important that the myth be historically factual. The power lies in the mythos, not it's historicity. But if I don't subscribe to the historicity, am I still a Christian? I'm an admirer of Jesus' philosophy. I'm a devotee of the Logos Christ.

Thanks, it is a bit comforting knowing I am not alone in this struggle. By "historically factual" I am guessing you are referring to the trial and execution of Jesus? I don't know that I am willing to concede that "(t)he power lies in the mythos, not it's historicity." I am inclined to believe the power lies in the truth behind the mythos, history being but a small facet.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

But I can't connect the man with the cosmic diety he's supposed to be. I like them both, but I can't see them as one entity.

I struggle often with this. One thing seems certain, G-d moved through the man Jesus in ways unlike any other man, or at the least like very few others. Whether that is sufficient to "make" him G-d, or an extension of G-d, I don't know. I keep coming back to the passage in Isaiah, which says (paraphrased) that "G-d bare His right arm in the world." Hmmm, never thought to ask BB about that one... But that is the ideal I have long held behind my vision of Jesus as Messiah.

I don't know...I just can't seem to fathom Jesus as a "common" person. It really undermines the whole Christianity shebang, and turns Jesus into a renegade rabbi, turns Paul into a evangelical drum-banger reaching out to the dregs of society with a convoluted Judaism. If this were so, Christianity should have died an ignoble death long, long ago, around the time of Bar-Kochba or in one of the Roman purges. How long can one keep up the air in a lie? How does one keep a lie zealous enough over enough generations to last for two thousand years? Given apathy and atrophy, a lie surely couldn't maintain itself that long, even with a worldly power structure behind it. Too many Davids to take on Goliahs, too many Martin Luthurs to take on religious institutions...And too big of a G-d to allow such an insolent indisgression to continue.

[wil]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

When I was almost thirty years old a series of unfortunate events which I didn't see coming destroyed my life as I then knew it. I lost everything including my career and my self respect. I was thrown into complete limbo, contemplated suicide daily, and had to start over completely from scratch. It's funny, looking backI can now see how the events following that disaster were the seeds of everything I have now that I cherish. At the time it seemed that I was flogging along in total darkness at the complete and utter whim of malevolent fate, but what seemed to be random events worked out to set me on my present path, and for that I'm forever grateful.

Originally Posted by Cage

"I've been around and I've found that
walking is easy when the road is flat,
but those danged ole hills will get you every time.
The good Lord gave us mountains, so we could learn how to climb"

G-d never gives us more than we can handle....
.... I only wish He wouldn't trust me so much!

While we are going over the waterfall we never consider that this is just the beginning and once we survive the impact we get to learn to swim...and all of it, every bit of it, will take us on to bigger and better things and we'll look back at it all some day with a new found appreciation.

If you are going to laugh about it later, you may as well laugh about it now. Another mantra of mine...because while in the midst I still cannot see the light...I do now Know, with a capitol K that spirit is involved, and it is all good...I can't see it, I can't explain it, but through it all I will learn and grow and this is just another blessing of life...

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Thanks, it is a bit comforting knowing I am not alone in this struggle. By "historically factual" I am guessing you are referring to the trial and execution of Jesus? I don't know that I am willing to concede that "(t)he power lies in the mythos, not it's historicity." I am inclined to believe the power lies in the truth behind the mythos, history being but a small facet....I don't know...I just can't seem to fathom Jesus as a "common" person. It really undermines the whole Christianity shebang, and turns Jesus into a renegade rabbi, turns Paul into a evangelical drum-banger reaching out to the dregs of society with a convoluted Judaism. If this were so, Christianity should have died an ignoble death long, long ago, around the time of Bar-Kochba or in one of the Roman purges. How long can one keep up the air in a lie? How does one keep a lie zealous enough over enough generations to last for two thousand years? Given apathy and atrophy, a lie surely couldn't maintain itself that long, even with a worldly power structure behind it. Too many Davids to take on Goliahs, too many Martin Luthurs to take on religious institutions...And too big of a G-d to allow such an insolent indisgression to continue.

I think what we are getting at is that it isn't a lie. Whether it is a story, an allegory, fact, history, metaphor, analogy, myth....at some point in time I realized it doesn't matter. What matters is how it affects your soul, how it resonates in your heart, what changes it makes on your life and how you treat others.

The stuff that will pull the perverbial rug out from under some folks belief system is exactly what cemented my understanding and allowed me the utmost freedom to commune with G-d, all, oneness...

Yeah I slip, but I have a path that my elder brother and wayshower blazed, and I can with just a nanomoment of thought and rememberance find that path, and be comforted that I am still on it...no matter how far I slip...I'm am but only one foot out of bounds...but it is upto me to make that step back.

Jesus is my saviour, not in that he saves me, but that he shows me how to save myself...and again, our elder brother shows that it is possible for all of G-d's children...

[earl]

Well Wil, if we're into sharing aphorisms, I think my favorite was from a bumper sticker I saw some 30 years ago: "my karma just ran over my dogma." earl

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Wil

No as Path indicates we don't really care what you think....ooo was that to straightforward? Let the politically correct police find the code. We are not asking whether you deem me or anyone else to be a Christian, the question was "Do you call yourself a Christian?" We aren't judging others in their path with Jesus in this regard.

I saw why you said this and was sad to see your reply. There is another way. Why not CARE what a person thinks, yet understand that nobody lives the same and thinks the same? If someone is offended by me, or thinks I am or am NOT a Christian, or being evil, or that I am going to heaven or hell, then I sincerely want to hear it and understand their viewpoint. I care what every person thinks whether I agree or disagree with it. If I or another person is filthy in manufactured or self serving thoughts, I still care about it.

I don't think it is a play on the definition of 'care'. One way is, "I see what you think, but I don't care what you think" and the other is, "I care what you think, but I don't think the same." If 'caring' is synonymous with 'loving' or 'thinking of' then the first way seems accurate. Afterall a person chooses their own thoughts and beliefs and tends to love the ones they've chosen. But if 'Love' or 'care' is a verb and we are to 'care' for others with our minds, then I submit the latter is a better path.

I find the mention of politically correct police is a well placed diversion. By stating that a person does not care what another person thinks, a person is just saying that they are the police and judge of their own thoughts. So it is not a matter of stating something a certain way (i.e. 'politically correct')... instead it is a matter of whether or not to listen to another person and accept their thoughts. So it is NOT the police over what a person says, but it is the police over what a person listens to. The only policing there might be against spying or not respecting a person's privacy... which would be kind of pointless on an overtly public forum. An individual chooses what an individual listens to, as well as says.

In a way, the question being asked in this thread has the same perspective with ownership of beliefs. Realize that before a person speaks that a person has first judged. So this thread asks me to judge for myself whether or not I am a Christian. Would that be a judgement of what I choose to read, study, and value... or a judgement of my deeds, fruits, and what I say? I recognize that I am the absolute WORST judge over whether or not I am a Christian. The worst. People can't glorify or condemn themselves. (Well, they can, but shouldn't) If I want to convey to a person a set of beliefs then I use the word 'Christian', but I'd prefer to say that I am a disciple, a student, or a follower, to remove the self-judgement of whether or not that I am.

I agree with Path_of_One that God or Christ is the best judge of whether or not a person is Christian. Besides being the source or definition of it, I imagine the Father and Jesus in heaven have an all-seeing perspective that is far better. But starting with the immediate disciples... shouldn't I consider each of their perspectives? Then how about Paul's? How about those Saints? A church? My neighbor? My brother? How about my enemy? Shouldn't I care what my enemy thinks? Do I even know what my enemy thinks? Do I even know what my brother, neighbor, church, or an alledged Saint truly thinks? How about whatever Paul was rambling on about? How about Christ and God... does anyone really know what they think? I know best what I think, and relative to whether or not I'm a Christian (or anything) it is the one perspective that I care the least about. I know less about others but care more about their perspective.

From another viewpoint, consider that it may actually be a compliment if someone judges and says, "You are not <being> a Christian". For example if you are repulsed by a person's stated beliefs, wouldn't it be more of an insult if they turned and judged that you are exactly the same as them? I have yet to find a person that thinks exactly, absolutely, the same as me or any other person. I question whether it is possible.

[wil]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I saw why you said this and was sad to see your reply. There is another way. Why not CARE what a person thinks, yet understand that nobody lives the same and thinks the same?

Namaste cyberpi,

In rereading my post you are correct, I was wrong in what I wrote it was not exactly whay I meant. So apologies to all including Silas and Path of One as what I meant was that whether he determined one to be a Christian or not be was not the purpose/discussion in this thread. What it the thread topic is about is whether one calls themself a Christian and why. Not a thread to be judgemental about what others think but to determine the scope and breadth of those affected by Jesus's life and works enough to call themselves followers of Christ.

So in this I was wrong on two counts...one in my words of saying I don't or We don't care...and two in being judgemental as well.

Thanx for the contemplations...