Do you call yourself a Christian?

[Caimanson]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I don't know...I just can't seem to fathom Jesus as a "common" person. It really undermines the whole Christianity shebang, and turns Jesus into a renegade rabbi, turns Paul into a evangelical drum-banger reaching out to the dregs of society with a convoluted Judaism. If this were so, Christianity should have died an ignoble death long, long ago, around the time of Bar-Kochba or in one of the Roman purges. How long can one keep up the air in a lie? How does one keep a lie zealous enough over enough generations to last for two thousand years? Given apathy and atrophy, a lie surely couldn't maintain itself that long, even with a worldly power structure behind it. Too many Davids to take on Goliahs, too many Martin Luthurs to take on religious institutions...And too big of a G-d to allow such an insolent indisgression to continue.

Hello Juanto, nice exchange with China.

It depends how you define truth and lie.
I feel that the point that China made is that the myth works, and perhaps it works precisely because it is a myth and not fact.
The way I see it is that if christianity has survived so far it is because it has been effective enough to work in the lives of many people, just like Wil is suggesting.

When you say "too big a God to allow such indisgression", isn't that you projecting personal attributes to God, that God may or may not have?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Caimanson!

When you say "too big a God to allow such indisgression", isn't that you projecting personal attributes to God, that God may or may not have?

There is always the possibility I may be mistaken. If by "projecting personal attributes" you mean daring to believe G-d may actually have an interest in "His" creation, gauging by answered (and unanswered) prayer and commonplace and extraordinary miracles all around and across time, then I would have to say "yes, perhaps I am projecting personal attributes, that seem to me rather obvious." But, that's just my take on the matter. Do I think G-d is sitting on a cloud looking around for who to strike with a lightning bolt next?...no, that is not at all how I see things.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Wil!

Originally Posted by wil

I think what we are getting at is that it isn't a lie. Whether it is a story, an allegory, fact, history, metaphor, analogy, myth....at some point in time I realized it doesn't matter. What matters is how it affects your soul, how it resonates in your heart, what changes it makes on your life and how you treat others.

I appreciate what you are trying to say here, but the problem I have with this line of reasoning is what difference is there between this and holding some other story / allegory / fact / history / metaphor / analogy / myth as my prevaling morality mythos? At a surface level, this seems to justify and corrobberate (sp?) other religious memetic paradigms, and that is well and good. But it undermines the Christian memetic paradigm in that I could just as easily hold "Little Red Riding Hood" as my morality myth. I have read many, many heartfelt, moving and touching stories, even ones with what could be called moral lessons. Could I not just as easily hold the "Chicken Soup for the Soul" series of books as a Gospel? None of these hold a promise of eternal co-existence with my Creator, or offer a human face (albeit one I have not laid eyes on) to act as representative of G-d on earth. In that sense, such an argument doesn't even measure up to my understanding of Buddhism...

I really need to pause here, I am not trying in any sense to be judgemental. If this view works for you, by all means proceed. But it matters, a great deal, to me, whether or not Christianity is fundamentally formulated on a true basis, or not. If not, Christianity becomes "just another" set of bedtime stories, another set of Aesop's morality myths. Nice, but unreal. Who remembers "the ant and the grasshopper?" Who cares? With a real Jesus, who died a real death as a real "perfect" sacrifice, who rose again on the 3rd day, all promises made by him hold merit. The promise(s) that if we abide in his teachings and walk in his path, we have a place among the abodes in the heavens. And that if we don't, we won't (whatever that eventually means).

Originally Posted by wil

The stuff that will pull the perverbial rug out from under some folks belief system is exactly what cemented my understanding and allowed me the utmost freedom to commune with G-d, all, oneness...

Yeah I slip, but I have a path that my elder brother and wayshower blazed, and I can with just a nanomoment of thought and rememberance find that path, and be comforted that I am still on it...no matter how far I slip...I'm am but only one foot out of bounds...but it is upto me to make that step back.

Jesus is my saviour, not in that he saves me, but that he shows me how to save myself...and again, our elder brother shows that it is possible for all of G-d's children...

I am happy for you that this works for you. In some sense I agree and appreciate, Jesus is the wayshower. I simply hold the caveat that I am not, and cannot possibly be, Jesus. I can walk his path to the best of my ability, and certainly he would prefer that I did. But I cannot cross that threshold in this existence, I am not Christ.

[BuzzLY]

Negative. I call myself Buzz Lightyear, Space Ranger.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by BuzzLY

Negative. I call myself Buzz Lightyear, Space Ranger.

That's so funny; I saw your user name, and asked myself "What does that stand for", lol! I got the answer right off.


Welcome,


~James~

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Juan

I don't know...I just can't seem to fathom Jesus as a "common" person. It really undermines the whole Christianity shebang, and turns Jesus into a renegade rabbi, turns Paul into a evangelical drum-banger reaching out to the dregs of society with a convoluted Judaism. If this were so, Christianity should have died an ignoble death long, long ago, around the time of Bar-Kochba or in one of the Roman purges. How long can one keep up the air in a lie? How does one keep a lie zealous enough over enough generations to last for two thousand years? Given apathy and atrophy, a lie surely couldn't maintain itself that long, even with a worldly power structure behind it. Too many Davids to take on Goliahs, too many Martin Luthurs to take on religious institutions...And too big of a G-d to allow such an insolent indisgression to continue.

I have had a similar dilemma, but mine is a little different. I don't think that the Gospels were written to be an historical account. I do think that they present a view of , a slice if you will, of something much larger than the Jesus character they depict. It's kinda like poetry or even abstract art that way. The artist is trying to communicate something larger than just the words on paper or colors on canvas. Add to that the fact that we have almost nothing about an actual, historical Jesus in any reputable source material.

So, I'm getting from what you've said that for you the only alternative to belief is to dismiss the whole thing as a lie. I don't see it that way. I can't shake the thought that there's something much, much bigger under the surface of Paul and the Gospels because, like you said, there has to be an explanation for the impetus and longevity of the movement.

I see little clues here and there, but there's also an enormous garbage heap of foo-foo mythology with it's tendrils protruding here, there, and everywhere just waiting to take one on a wild goose chase. My experience is that it's very, very difficult to find good information, and one must always suspect one's own motives when deciding what to accept or reject. It's a big, thorny, briarpatch, there are no easy answers, and all of the low hanging fruit is fermented.

Chris

[wil]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

... a promise of eternal co-existence with my Creator, or offer a human face (albeit one I have not laid eyes on) to act as representative of G-d on earth.

Namaste 123, first and foremost, I have become fully aware that you are here for the discussion, contemplation and not being judgemental, but questioning and exploring righ along with the rest of us. No worries at all in that regard. We also know we differ in many ways but can converse together regarding our similarities and differences...I so appreciate that.

The way I see it we are living a phase of your eternal co-existence with G-d now and forever and nothing we can do can change that. I also understand that we look at human faces of G-d every time we look into anothers eyes or the mirror and choose to see.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

...With a real Jesus, who died a real death as a real "perfect" sacrifice, who rose again on the 3rd day, all promises made by him hold merit. The promise(s) that if we abide in his teachings and walk in his path, we have a place among the abodes in the heavens. And that if we don't, we won't (whatever that eventually means)..

Again in my paradigm we'll get as many lives as it takes...but the end result will be our realization of the truth that exists...we are all one, one with each other, one with the universe, one with G-d, inseperable now and forever.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

..I am not, and cannot possibly be, Jesus. I can walk his path to the best of my ability, and certainly he would prefer that I did. But I cannot cross that threshold in this existence, I am not Christ.

And at this juncture I would say you are 100% correct. And if you said the exact opposite I would say you are 100% correct. I'm not saying, nor asking that you believe me, but can you understand how that could, how the potential exists that it could be so?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I have had a similar dilemma, but mine is a little different. I don't think that the Gospels were written to be an historical account. I do think that they present a view of , a slice if you will, of something much larger than the Jesus character they depict. It's kinda like poetry or even abstract art that way. The artist is trying to communicate something larger than just the words on paper or colors on canvas. Add to that the fact that we have almost nothing about an actual, historical Jesus in any reputable source material.

Well, there is Josephus, but I do suppose "reputable" is another one of those relative terms. I think I see what you are saying, and I don't dismiss it out of hand. It is the backstory, the kernal of truth as Flow put it, as to whether or not the whole thing is valid and worthy. That didn't come out quite right. Certainly there are moral lessons within which are valid in their own right, as simply moral lessons: do unto others, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, blah blah blah. It is the matter of whether or not the messenger is even remotely what he is claimed to be...I can accept for the sake of argument that Jesus may not be G-d per se...but if Jesus was not an instrument of G-d to serve a G-dly purpose and fulfil a specific G-dly destiny with direct implications for what became Christianity, then why should I bother? What distinguishes Christianity from, oh, say Rastafari? Or Santeria, for that matter? What is so special about Christianity, if one takes away its Divine(ly inspired) Messiah? The morality lessons can be learned in a host of places outside of Christianity, even outside of Monotheism, even outside of religion. Therefore (and I know this seems a repeat of what I just said in an earlier post), without a Divine Messiah, there is nothing particularly special about Christianity, certainly nothing worth founding a religion.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

So, I'm getting from what you've said that for you the only alternative to belief is to dismiss the whole thing as a lie. I don't see it that way. I can't shake the thought that there's something much, much bigger under the surface of Paul and the Gospels because, like you said, there has to be an explanation for the impetus and longevity of the movement.

That's just it...because there seems to be something "bigger" just beneath the surface, I'm not inclined to dismiss Christianity as founded on a lie. There has to be an explanation for the longevity, and that longevity is not simply held in a collection of morality myths and fairy tales. I was only somewhat facetious when I mentioned Little Red Riding Hood...that story is what, about 400 years old since the Brothers Grimm put into a popular format? It probably dates much earlier. While it is a morality myth, and a darn good one, it is *not* the basis of a religion, even in combination with the remaining Grimm's Fairy Tales. That's my point about that. Without Jesus as Christ, the New Testament is little different than Grimm's Fairy Tales.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I see little clues here and there, but there's also an enormous garbage heap of foo-foo mythology with it's tendrils protruding here, there, and everywhere just waiting to take one on a wild goose chase. My experience is that it's very, very difficult to find good information, and one must always suspect one's own motives when deciding what to accept or reject. It's a big, thorny, briarpatch, there are no easy answers, and all of the low hanging fruit is fermented.

LOL, yes the low hanging fruit is fermented, that that isn't already rotten on the tree! I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, wil!

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste 123, first and foremost, I have become fully aware that you are here for the discussion, contemplation and not being judgemental, but questioning and exploring righ along with the rest of us. No worries at all in that regard. We also know we differ in many ways but can converse together regarding our similarities and differences...I so appreciate that.

Thank you sincerely for the vote of confidence.

Originally Posted by wil

The way I see it we are living a phase of your eternal co-existence with G-d now and forever and nothing we can do can change that.

I agree, in the same sense you spoke of earlier about G-d hearing our every thought. We cannot hide from G-d, our every action good and bad, deliberate and unintentional is right there available for His viewing pleasure, so to speak. And while we may wish to limit His abilities (Oh, G-d couldn't possibly see everything -or- why should He be bothered with such petty nonsense?), I do *believe* that every action can be recalled. Can't say how, I'm not G-d's mechanic. But I do think we will be called to task for all we do, or don't do.

Originally Posted by wil

I also understand that we look at human faces of G-d every time we look into anothers eyes or the mirror and choose to see.Again in my paradigm we'll get as many lives as it takes...but the end result will be our realization of the truth that exists...we are all one, one with each other, one with the universe, one with G-d, inseperable now and forever.

In an esoteric / Buddhist sort of way I can understand this, and even to a degree empathize. Perhaps we do get as many lives as it takes...I'm not one to bet on that though. I'll continue with the one I've got to do the best I can with. If you're correct, I still win, I still make it to the next level. If I'm correct...I hope the best for those who think they can excuse their actions now by getting it right next time around.

Originally Posted by wil

And at this juncture I would say you are 100% correct. And if you said the exact opposite I would say you are 100% correct. I'm not saying, nor asking that you believe me, but can you understand how that could, how the potential exists that it could be so?

I don't know that you are correct, even more I don't know that I am correct. I follow where the Spirit leads me. Those matters that seem foreign and uncomfortable I tend to leave alone. I don't wish anyone ill, and anyone who wishes me ill will meet resistance. I treat others, for the most part, as I wish to be treated. The exception being those who show me they have no intent of meeting peaceably, in which case I invoke self-defense (even if pre-emptive). Another name is "tough-love." I am willing to share, but I will not waste effort on those not ready or willing to hear. I am willing to hear, until I hear something that is so far out there I just lose interest (I am human). I am not faultless, I have chinks in my armor, lots of them. But I do try, very hard, to live up to my understanding of what Messiah taught. As the Preacher in Ecclesiastes says, I live my life not being too wise or foolish, too "righteous" or too "sinful". As the Proverbs remind us, seek wisdom as for hidden treasure and little with quiet is better than riches with chaos.

The whole deal, all of Christianity, and I might dare add Judaism, is so simple in common sense. Simple common sense reality. With that in mind, even if it makes no sense logically, Jesus as Messiah, an instrument of G-d, seems only right and true and correct. It just seems "real."

Anyway, I've probably beaten this horse to death by now...

I'll step off the soapbox and give someone else a turn...

[China Cat Sunflower]

Juan,

Thanks for your kind replies.

So, I think we've covered the bases as far as my essential dilemma. But to recap: If Jesus isn't the one and only avenue to salvation, what's the point? I can't find enough evidence to believe, but I do find enough that I can't entirely dismiss. And I can't just decide to believe, but I also can't just decide to join the happy atheists because that's a leap of faith as well.

Well, I accept the essential tension of life, but it gives me no solace. I guess that's just the way it is.

Chris

[wil]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

... If Jesus isn't the one and only avenue to salvation, what's the point? ...

Namaste China,

I don't understand the question.

You want to go from LA to NY, you have plenty of choices...You can take the freeways, or the highways, or the side streets or go via Mexico City and Anchorage and New Orleans....always your choice.

Are you saying since there is a choice we shouldn't have a freeway?

We could communicate with notes in a bottle, smoke signals or drums...why use the internet...what's the point?

PS Any of the choices could be The Christ, oh and 'The Christ' may have different names in other thoughts, but you already know that, hence my confusion in your question.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste China,

I don't understand the question.

You want to go from LA to NY, you have plenty of choices...You can take the freeways, or the highways, or the side streets or go via Mexico City and Anchorage and New Orleans....always your choice.

Are you saying since there is a choice we shouldn't have a freeway?

We could communicate with notes in a bottle, smoke signals or drums...why use the internet...what's the point?

PS Any of the choices could be The Christ, oh and 'The Christ' may have different names in other thoughts, but you already know that, hence my confusion in your question.

Oh, well that was phrased specifically for Juan. Let me expand: If Jesus isn't the one and only avenue to salvation, what's the point in participating in organized Christianity? And from the point of view of organized Christianity, what's the point in calling myself a Christian, regardless of any technical definition?

I'm a devotee of the Logos Christ; the Universal Cosmic Christ. Jesus was a good dude and I like his philosophy, but I see him as a mythological character playing a role which is meant to portray some of the characteristics of the Christ. The culturally specific parts like the messiah stuff are interesting, but I see them as impressionist art, not technical drawings (sorta). I can understand how that would sound like it makes the Gospel Jesus meaningless, but to me it makes it ever so much more meaningful becaue now it's not just a story confined to a specific culture and time, but an expression of a universal archetype which transcends time.

Chris

[wil]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Oh, well that was phrased specifically for Juan. Let me expand: If Jesus isn't the one and only avenue to salvation, what's the point in participating in organized Christianity? And from the point of view of organized Christianity, what's the point in calling myself a Christian, regardless of any technical definition?

I'm a devotee of the Logos Christ; the Universal Cosmic Christ. Jesus was a good dude and I like his philosophy, but I see him as a mythological character playing a role which is meant to portray some of the characteristics of the Christ. The culturally specific parts like the messiah stuff are interesting, but I see them as impressionist art, not technical drawings (sorta). I can understand how that would sound like it makes the Gospel Jesus meaningless, but to me it makes it ever so much more meaningful becaue now it's not just a story confined to a specific culture and time, but an expression of a universal archetype which transcends time.

Chris

Again seems to me you answered your own question. I call myself a Christian because this is the freeway I travel. Yes I dance with the Sufi's, just got home from the Synagogue, but I get my understanding from understanding Christ.

Tonight when the Rabbi spoke of Joseph and carrying the stone that held the light, the original light from "let there be light" and how Joseph used the light to take himself to a palace when he was thrown in the pit, used it to identify the dreams, and how when his coffin arose from the nile Moses saw the light and obtained the stone...this tells me I need to learn more from the Torah, Talmud, Midrash and Zohar. Do I not think the Christ was in all of them, and in the authors of those stories about the stories that are in my books?

I chant with the Hindus and know that Jesus is a guru to them, that they see him as an incarnation of Krishna, that they know he traveled to India and they have his grave...I enjoy the stories of Krishna and Shiva and the rest and can learn from them...and Christ is my Guru too...but I still call myself a Christian...as that is my avenue...while I totally respect all the other roads and paths...

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

If Jesus isn't the one and only avenue to salvation, what's the point?

Oh, now China Cat, you've read enough of my posts to know that is not what I meant. However, as each different religion has it's selling points, those things that distinguish it from the others, Jesus as Messiah does that for Christianity. What would Buddhism be without Guatama? What would Judaism be without Moses?

Why don't we take away all of these "avatars" and make a hodge-podge mishmash like Taijasi advocated?

What is left to convince anyone that G-d exists, outside of personal experience?

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I can't find enough evidence to believe, but I do find enough that I can't entirely dismiss. And I can't just decide to believe, but I also can't just decide to join the happy atheists because that's a leap of faith as well.

Indeed, I agree. Yet, I have those nagging personal experiences that tell me "something is out there."

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Well, I accept the essential tension of life, but it gives me no solace. I guess that's just the way it is.

If ever I find myself ready to surrender Christianity, I will likely gravitate to the origins of religion, the pure and humble basis of every one of them...shamanism.

Otherwise, I do believe G-d has provided various paths for various peoples. Who is it mentioned "Christian by culture?" Why not also "Buddhist by culture, Muslim by culture, Hindu by culture, Pagan by culture?" I have no problem understanding these as valid paths for each as each is given. Not something laid out on a table to pick and choose from, but that each performs a function of detailing spirit in some manner or mythos that validates and solidifies the spiritual into a tangible asset for its adherents.

My point in this discussion, and others like it, is that Christianity is nothing special without a Divine Messiah, there is nothing to distinguish it or set it apart from other religions. At no time since I have participated on this forum have I been seen to disparage any specific, legitimate path, although it is easy enough to see where I do take casual shots at "smorgasbord" and "melting pot" pseudo-religions. Another story for another day.

That said, I am not G-d, I am not the Creator, I did not make any person, I did not birth any person into any specific culture, and I most especially do not sit in judgement of any other person. It is a fearsome thing to fall into the hands of the Living G-d! That's one officer I don't want to get caught impersonating!

BTW, I think my computer locked up on me. I'm writing from work, which is a no-no (shame on me). So if you don't see me around for a little while, at least you know why. Oh yeah, Sorry if it seems I ignored you, Earl. I promise, it was not intentional. Thanks for your contributons too!

[earl]

Practice shamanism, huh Juan? Well, I've recently begun studying and practicing approaches of a shamanic nature myself-in addition to my other stuff. Never been an either-or kind of guy. Funny thing is that so far it's Christian images that spontaneously come to mind as I did it. Guess that means I'm practicing "Christian" shamanism. Have a happy New Year all. earl