Do you reject original Sin? - Page 3

BlaznFattyz · 08-12-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Don't be sorry it's just one reason I never made a good Christian. The idea that a 2 hour old baby can die with an unforgiven 'blemish' just doesn't sit well with me. Sin comes with choice, how does a small baby choose to sin?

its important to note that all christians do not believe in a "blemished baby" as you state. but it is also not enough to seperate the denominations who all believe in the father, son, and holy ghost, as it does not take away but just adds (maybe unnecessarily). baptism has to do with making a conscious decision to accept jesus christ as lord and saviour and dedicate one's life to god. jesus christ himself did not get baptized until he was in his 30's. a baby is not saved by having a service forced on them with out any knowledge of what is going on. if you look back at the time of jesus' crucifixion, the thief only had to believe in jesus christ and jesus said to him "today you will be with me in paradise." he did not have a baby baptism to get rid of the "original sin" yet he is in heaven with god thru his faith and christ's grace. a good christian is about loving and honoring and worshiping and having faith in jesus christ and the father that sent him, and doing everything to glorify him.
what i do believe in is that all fall short of the glory of god. adam and eve sinned and god had to kill an animal to cover their nakedness. man was to labor for food, childbirth became painful, and woman was going to be under man, our days become less and we eventually die. but thru christ we would eventually find forgiveness and everlasting life when we decide to let him into our lives and transform us and be born again.

Quahom1 · 08-12-2007, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Don't be sorry it's just one reason I never made a good Christian. The idea that a 2 hour old baby can die with an unforgiven 'blemish' just doesn't sit well with me. Sin comes with choice, how does a small baby choose to sin?

That is why a child is un-accountable until the age of ascention (11-14 years of age). Maybe you never read that part of the Bible...

In Judeac faith, the age is 13.

All babies that die, go straight to heaven. Non stop flight...

v/r

Q

Muslimwoman · 08-13-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is why a child is un-accountable until the age of ascention (11-14 years of age). Maybe you never read that part of the Bible...

The idea of Original Sin is surely that we are born with a blot (I believe that is how you worded it). So are you saying that people are not accountable for that blot until later life? Perhaps you could give me the Bible verses so I can read up on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

All babies that die, go straight to heaven. Non stop flight...

With free juice and nibbles I hope.

Please explain to me. During our lives we sin and must, of course, answer for each sin. So do you believe we also have to answer for original sin as well as our own sins? I accept that people believe I cannot go to heaven because I was never baptised and therefore cannot be saved but for the sake of discussion, would I have to answer for both?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

baptism has to do with making a conscious decision to accept jesus christ as lord and saviour and dedicate one's life to god. jesus christ himself did not get baptized until he was in his 30's.

Thank you for your comments Blazn. So would you say that a person that is baptised as a baby should choose to be baptised again as an adult? Thus declaring their service to G-d, as an adult choice.

Salaam

Pico · 08-13-2007, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Please explain to me. During our lives we sin and must, of course, answer for each sin. So do you believe we also have to answer for original sin as well as our own sins? I accept that people believe I cannot go to heaven because I was never baptised and therefore cannot be saved but for the sake of discussion, would I have to answer for both?

Original sin is what brought death and suffering into the world. Little kids go to heaven when they die because they haven't willingly disobeyed God. There's a age before they become morally accountable and if they die before then they have no sin against them.

As for being baptized, that will not get your sins forgiven and will not get you into heaven. The only thing that will is to trust Jesus as your savior, and enter into a relationship with him. As the bible says in the book of James, he is the only person who can present you as pure and spotless before God. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit, so when you accept his gift of forgiveness you receive the Holy Spirit. A baptism by water won't do that for you.

cyberpi · 08-13-2007, 02:18 AM

How do you know the end if you don't know the beginning? I submit that babies are not born until after babies are born. Meaning... there is the birth of the flesh and then there is the assignment of the soul.

And since the meat of baptism is in confession or repentance? ... enough said.

BlaznFattyz · 08-13-2007, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thank you for your comments Blazn. So would you say that a person that is baptised as a baby should choose to be baptised again as an adult? Thus declaring their service to G-d, as an adult choice.

Salaam

of course, yes... they should get baptized as an adult if they wish. as a baby their parents may have done it out of religious tradition, out of social influence, to pick godparents, to dedicate their baby to god. but the individual should be the one that makes the conscious decision as a mature person to dedicate their lives personally to god when they know what it all means and why.

Muslimwoman · 08-13-2007, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

of course, yes... they should get baptized as an adult if they wish. as a baby their parents may have done it out of religious tradition, out of social influence, to pick godparents, to dedicate their baby to god. but the individual should be the one that makes the conscious decision as a mature person to dedicate their lives personally to god when they know what it all means and why.

May I ask then for your view of childrens faith. Should a child, as it grows, be free to choose a faith to follow? I can understand the concern of parents that believe their faith is the only path to G-d but should we be free to choose?

Quahom1 · 08-13-2007, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

its important to note that all christians do not believe in a "blemished baby" as you state. but it is also not enough to seperate the denominations who all believe in the father, son, and holy ghost, as it does not take away but just adds (maybe unnecessarily). baptism has to do with making a conscious decision to accept jesus christ as lord and saviour and dedicate one's life to god. jesus christ himself did not get baptized until he was in his 30's. a baby is not saved by having a service forced on them with out any knowledge of what is going on. if you look back at the time of jesus' crucifixion, the thief only had to believe in jesus christ and jesus said to him "today you will be with me in paradise." he did not have a baby baptism to get rid of the "original sin" yet he is in heaven with god thru his faith and christ's grace. a good christian is about loving and honoring and worshiping and having faith in jesus christ and the father that sent him, and doing everything to glorify him.
what i do believe in is that all fall short of the glory of god. adam and eve sinned and god had to kill an animal to cover their nakedness. man was to labor for food, childbirth became painful, and woman was going to be under man, our days become less and we eventually die. but thru christ we would eventually find forgiveness and everlasting life when we decide to let him into our lives and transform us and be born again.

I accept all but the woman under man thing. God said woman will desire after man, and he will rule over her. Said nothing about subjugation.

Woman is life, and man is the servant of life. Kinda like the president of the United States...the one that serves in that position is the number on servant of the people...

v/r

Q

JosephM · 08-13-2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

May I ask then for your view of childrens faith. Should a child, as it grows, be free to choose a faith to follow? I can understand the concern of parents that believe their faith is the only path to G-d but should we be free to choose?

MW,
Personally, I would say it is not a case of should OR shouldn't. We are free to choose when we come of age unless we willingly give up that right to our parents, peers or group.

Peace,
JM

Quahom1 · 08-13-2007, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The idea of Original Sin is surely that we are born with a blot (I believe that is how you worded it). So are you saying that people are not accountable for that blot until later life? Perhaps you could give me the Bible verses so I can read up on it.

With free juice and nibbles I hope.

Please explain to me. During our lives we sin and must, of course, answer for each sin. So do you believe we also have to answer for original sin as well as our own sins? I accept that people believe I cannot go to heaven because I was never baptised and therefore cannot be saved but for the sake of discussion, would I have to answer for both?

Salaam

Who said you can't go to heaven? Not me. What is said is that you will not get to the Father but through the Son. None of us can.

You get a 50/50 chance to go to heaven just like everyone else. Either your name is in the book of life or it is not.

But Christ offered us a 'ticket' to heaven and a way to the Father.

He/She who professes Christ in heart and soul have a room with their name on the door. And they will see the Father through the Son.

Me...I just want to be the gate keeper. Peter will tell me when to open the gate, and when to close it...

v/r

Q

Quahom1 · 08-13-2007, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephM

MW,
Personally, I would say it is not a case of should OR shouldn't. We are free to choose when we come of age unless we willingly give up that right to our parents, peers or group.

Peace,
JM

Eh, not quite. A Child should be taught as much as possible, however a parent has the obligation to influence his/her child in the way of faith as they understand it, while such child is growing up. God, put said parent in charge of said child...for a specific reason. What the child does as an adult is no consternation to said parent. Then the job is done.

v/r

Q

BlaznFattyz · 08-13-2007, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

May I ask then for your view of childrens faith. Should a child, as it grows, be free to choose a faith to follow? I can understand the concern of parents that believe their faith is the only path to G-d but should we be free to choose?

parents should teach their children all that they know is right and lead them on the path that they know in their hearts to be straight, and also to be inquisitive, open-minded and humble. if that which is taught is true, then it is passed down as wisdom. but if someone thinks they already know everything then nothing is gained. if parents teach their children beliefs that have never been tested or questioned or just do it because with no good reason, then that is not very responsible. if you have a child, how far will you be able to help them with their math? should you tell them because you cant go any farther that they cant go any farther, or to go as far as they can go?

Muslimwoman · 08-13-2007, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephM

MW,
Personally, I would say it is not a case of should OR shouldn't. We are free to choose when we come of age unless we willingly give up that right to our parents, peers or group.

Peace,
JM

Salaam Joseph

It is just something that troubles me. I do not have children myself but do have 2 boys from my husbands family that live with us most of the week. Obviously they are born Muslim and if I suggested 'choice' would no doubt be whisked off to the shrink but I had the choice, so shouldn't I allow others to have the same choice. Deeply troubling. So I was wondering what the Christian view is and indeed any other view. I can see that if we believe we have found the right path we would not wish those we love to stray from that path but is that not too restrictive, should they not have the choice I had. Sorry repeating myself now.

MW

Muslimwoman · 08-13-2007, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Who said you can't go to heaven? Not me. What is said is that you will not get to the Father but through the Son. None of us can.

But as much as I love and respect Jesus (pbuh) as an amazing Prophet of G-d, I do not accept him as the Son of G-d. So surely by default that means, to a Christian, I cannot enter heaven?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Me...I just want to be the gate keeper. Peter will tell me when to open the gate, and when to close it...

It is so nice to hear someone want a humble job and not wanting to be up there helping to run heaven. By the way if a strange woman turns up, with some rather confused ideas and says "hey you got the job then", please see if you can sneak the gates open.

wil · 08-13-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

But as much as I love and respect Jesus (pbuh) as an amazing Prophet of G-d, I do not accept him as the Son of G-d. So surely by default that means, to a Christian, I cannot enter heaven?

Well according to John Paul you could...of course it appears the new guy would disagree... And in my belief you could... of course in my belief heaven is at hand....