Do you reject original Sin? - Page 6

mee · 08-19-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Yes, the Kingdom. I'm fascinated by that concept.

Chris

yes so am i ,Daniel 2;44 looking to this kingdom is the thing to do because it means that we will be on the right side when it takes action. and holding an intense interest in that heavenly kingdom means that our focus will be in the right place

China Cat Sunflower · 08-21-2007, 05:41 AM

I should think you would be fascinated with the Kingdom Mee!

Chris

Quahom1 · 08-21-2007, 06:00 AM

[quote=Muslimwoman;118523]

Quote:

But as much as I love and respect Jesus (pbuh) as an amazing Prophet of G-d, I do not accept him as the Son of G-d. So surely by default that means, to a Christian, I cannot enter heaven?

No, it means you can't get to the Father, until you go through the Son. That is what Christianity touts. Imagine walking through the streets of heaven, but never getting to visit with the Father of all...until one goes through the "mediator", that is the Son.

Quote:

It is so nice to hear someone want a humble job and not wanting to be up there helping to run heaven. By the way if a strange woman turns up, with some rather confused ideas and says "hey you got the job then", please see if you can sneak the gates open.

Hey, WAIT! Gate keeping is important!

My Grandma used to tell me (lol), that if the gates aren't open, Mary (Miriam), is want to leave a window open for some to sneak in...

Considering what she did at the wedding of Cana, I suspect she could get away with that too...

v/r

Q

Muslimwoman · 08-21-2007, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, it means you can't get to the Father, until you go through the Son. That is what Christianity touts. Imagine walking through the streets of heaven, but never getting to visit with the Father of all...until one goes through the "mediator", that is the Son.

Oh I see, thank you for explaining. I would just be so thankful if I am allowed to sit in the broom cupboard or a damp cellar would do, got to be better than the other hot place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

My Grandma used to tell me (lol), that if the gates aren't open, Mary (Miriam), is want to leave a window open for some to sneak in...

Considering what she did at the wedding of Cana, I suspect she could get away with that too...

May G-d bless her for her love of people, I'll look for the window.

What did she do at the wedding of Cana?

Quahom1 · 08-21-2007, 06:26 AM

[quote=Muslimwoman;118467]

Quote:

The idea of Original Sin is surely that we are born with a blot (I believe that is how you worded it). So are you saying that people are not accountable for that blot until later life? Perhaps you could give me the Bible verses so I can read up on it.

Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” Exodus 20:5 declares, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." Do these Scriptures contradict each other?

The difference between Ezekiel 18:20 and Exodus 20:5 is that while Exodus 20:5 is speaking of consequences, Ezekiel 18:20 is speaking of punishment. Exodus 20:5 is saying that the consequences of a man’s sins can be felt generations later. Ezekiel 18:20 is saying that sons should not be punished for their father’s sins. God does not hold us accountable for the sins of our parents, but we sometimes suffer as a result of the sins our parents committed. Hence we suffer from the sins of Adam and Eve, but are not held accountable for the sins they commited...only for our own.

Quote:

Please explain to me. During our lives we sin and must, of course, answer for each sin. So do you believe we also have to answer for original sin as well as our own sins? I accept that people believe I cannot go to heaven because I was never baptised and therefore cannot be saved but for the sake of discussion, would I have to answer for both?

Again, who said you can't or won't go to Heaven? As to your second point, original sin means you are born fallen (flawed). Being not perfect, one needs to rely upon the perfection that is God to get us through life and back to Him. However, that which we do while in this world is something we are accountable for (conscious choice).

We will answer for that.

v/r

Q

China Cat Sunflower · 08-21-2007, 06:35 AM

A couple thousand years ago a man said "repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand." Ever since then , I guess, people have been repenting, and believing in Jesus saving them from their sins and etc. Where's the Kingdom? It was "at hand" two thousand years ago- where is it? What good has all this repenting and being "saved" done? I live a good life, as good as any average Christian as far as I can tell. I don't kill, don't steal, don't screw around on my wife, try to recycle, don't drain my motor oil in the ditch. I'm not Mother Theresa, but neither are you. So where's the advantage of being "saved"? It hasn't brought the Kingdom. It hasn't stopped any wars, and as a matter of fact had a lot to do with getting us into this latest one.

I'm thinking it must be about something else. I'm thinking all this talk about repenting and being saved is a cop-out. Jesus promised you'd all be persecuted. Are you? Doesn't look like it to me. Where's your cross? I don't see it. I don't see anything happening, just a lot of empty talk about sin and being saved and other things that don't make any difference to anything in any real sense. Jesus must be pissed.

Chris

Muslimwoman · 08-21-2007, 06:36 AM

Thank you Q, very well explained and I now understand.

Is that a generally held Chrsitian belief about original sin or do groups vary on the interpretations?

Quahom1 · 08-21-2007, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Oh I see, thank you for explaining. I would just be so thankful if I am allowed to sit in the broom cupboard or a damp cellar would do, got to be better than the other hot place.

May G-d bless her for her love of people, I'll look for the window.

What did she do at the wedding of Cana?

Mary (Miriam) told Jesus that the bridegroom was out of wine, and Jesus attempted to admonish His mother, stating His time was not yet nigh.

Mary, simply turned to the wine captain and instructed, "Do as He says".

Then her son Jesus, ordered the wine captain to bring vessels of water. He then blessed them, and directed the vessels to be distributed for the guests of the wedding to dip their cups.

The irony of the story is this. Usually, the best wine was served first, and then after the guests were pleasantly satiated (lol), the cheaper wine was provided to keep the "buzz/high" going.

But after tasting what was in the vessels, the wine captain approached the Bridegroom and exclaimed "Why did you save the best wine for last???"

v/r

Q

Muslimwoman · 08-21-2007, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Mary, simply turned to the wine captain and instructed, "Do as He says".

See it doesn't matter if you are the mother of Sally or the mother of Jesus (pbuh), first and foremost you are a mother and your children will damn well do as you say LOL

Quahom1 · 08-21-2007, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thank you Q, very well explained and I now understand.

Is that a generally held Chrsitian belief about original sin or do groups vary on the interpretations?

Well, that is the catholic view (and mine whole heartedly), and WE make up 1.23 billion of the 2.3 billion professed Christians in this world, so I suspect majority rules...

Quahom1 · 08-21-2007, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

See it doesn't matter if you are the mother of Sally or the mother of Jesus (pbuh), first and foremost you are a mother and your children will damn well do as you say LOL

Eh, not quite. At first, Jesus did admonish His mother, stating "Do you not realize, it is not my time???"

But Moms know when the time is right, and a human mother, pretty much cajoled her God/son into His career...

Muslimwoman · 08-21-2007, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Eh, not quite. At first, Jesus did admonish His mother, stating "Do you not realize, it is not my time???"

But Moms know when the time is right, and a human mother, pretty much cajoled her God/son into His career...

Oh the admonishment is just the 'man' thing Q but after all he did as he was told, as men usually do after protesting

Quahom1 · 08-21-2007, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

A couple thousand years ago a man said "repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand." Ever since then , I guess, people have been repenting, and believing in Jesus saving them from their sins and etc. Where's the Kingdom? It was "at hand" two thousand years ago- where is it? What good has all this repenting and being "saved" done? I live a good life, as good as any average Christian as far as I can tell. I don't kill, don't steal, don't screw around on my wife, try to recycle, don't drain my motor oil in the ditch. I'm not Mother Theresa, but neither are you. So where's the advantage of being "saved"? It hasn't brought the Kingdom. It hasn't stopped any wars, and as a matter of fact had a lot to do with getting us into this latest one.

I'm thinking it must be about something else. I'm thinking all this talk about repenting and being saved is a cop-out. Jesus promised you'd all be persecuted. Are you? Doesn't look like it to me. Where's your cross? I don't see it. I don't see anything happening, just a lot of empty talk about sin and being saved and other things that don't make any difference to anything in any real sense. Jesus must be pissed.

Chris

I'm sorry you feel that way. But I don't Chris. Try walking a mile in my shoes. I could try walking a mile in yours...but you know what, neither of us would survive. I think we would literally die, if we had to...

That is where God's grace comes in I should think. And let me ask you something...when or if one were to constantly beat on another, yet the other constantly provided for the one...after awhile, wouldn't you be the least bit curious as to why he/she kept providing???

I know I would have to ask "why".

v/r

Q

Quahom1 · 08-21-2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Oh the admonishment is just the 'man' thing Q but after all he did as he was told, as men usually do after protesting

To a point. But there came a time when He was beyond His mother, and indeed tasked another to become the human "son" in His stead...again, strange relationships and cryptic yet plain communications about how Christians are to be...

v/r

Q

Quahom1 · 08-21-2007, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

See it doesn't matter if you are the mother of Sally or the mother of Jesus (pbuh), first and foremost you are a mother and your children will damn well do as you say LOL

Perhaps, but the greater ramification here is the fact that the bridegroom apparently "BROKE TRADITION" by saving the best wine for last...Mom, may have started it, but God finished it, and once this occured (in Christian Scripture), Mary is out of the picture, and Jesus is in full flight as a prophet/rabbi/messiah/God come to earth.

That was the point of the story.

v/r

Q