Do you reject original Sin?

[Thomas]

As ever Q, great insight.

You have a homiletic charism, my friend, and I think you'd make a great spiritual director ...

Thomas
(acknowledging that you could well be that already, it's just that I don't know it)

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm sorry you feel that way. But I don't Chris. Try walking a mile in my shoes. I could try walking a mile in yours...but you know what, neither of us would survive. I think we would literally die, if we had to...

That is where God's grace comes in I should think. And let me ask you something...when or if one were to constantly beat on another, yet the other constantly provided for the one...after awhile, wouldn't you be the least bit curious as to why he/she kept providing???

I know I would have to ask "why".

v/r

Q

I just don't know what difference it makes, Joshua. You've got pie in the sky, I don't. But what difference does it make to the world here and now? All these Christians sitting around self congratulating about being "saved", waiting for the apocalypse. What good is that doing? Surely Jesus was talking about something radical and immediate. Something so counter-cultural that it would freak out the authorities, the power structures, and anyone vested in the social status quo. Those who chose to follow could expect a seriously hard time for participating in something so audacious. What happened to that? Maybe that was the plan, not yet another establishment with fat rich religious leaders like the Pope who lives in a flippin' palace for chrissakes. Maybe that's why, two thousand years later nothing's happened. Was Jesus really intending to create yet another politically connected oligarchy? That doesn't sound right to me.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I just don't know what difference it makes, Joshua. You've got pie in the sky, I don't. But what difference does it make to the world here and now? All these Christians sitting around self congratulating about being "saved", waiting for the apocalypse. What good is that doing? Surely Jesus was talking about something radical and immediate. Something so counter-cultural that it would freak out the authorities, the power structures, and anyone vested in the social status quo. Those who chose to follow could expect a seriously hard time for participating in something so audacious. What happened to that? Maybe that was the plan, not yet another establishment with fat rich religious leaders like the Pope who lives in a flippin' palace for chrissakes. Maybe that's why, two thousand years later nothing's happened. Was Jesus really intending to create yet another politically connected oligarchy? That doesn't sound right to me.

Chris

Sure you do (have pie in the sky). I'm a working stiff just like you. I have problems, and issues too. But I am NOT waiting for the end of days. I just have a big mouth and am willing to back it up. Jesus and Mamma always loved me...and that is good enough, for me.

I still pray for you my friend...and I'm sure in time you will figure things out that make sense to you.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Thomas

As ever Q, great insight.

You have a homiletic charism, my friend, and I think you'd make a great spiritual director ...

Thomas
(acknowledging that you could well be that already, it's just that I don't know it)

I'm a sailor, Thomas. But thank you for your kind words...that meant a lot to me.

v/r

Q

[China Cat Sunflower]

I can't do it Joshua. I can't do what Jesus wants. I love my life. I love my family. I like what I have. I can't lay down my life, I can't abandon my family, I can't sell everything I have and give it to the poor. I can't turn the other cheek. I can't love my enemies. All of these things that Jesus asks I'm unwilling to do. I can't be a Christian. "Saved" doesn't mean jack.

Chris

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Perhaps, but the greater ramification here is the fact that the bridegroom apparently "BROKE TRADITION" by saving the best wine for last...Mom, may have started it, but God finished it, and once this occured (in Christian Scripture), Mary is out of the picture, and Jesus is in full flight as a prophet/rabbi/messiah/God come to earth.

That was the point of the story.

I was just trying to be lighthearted Q, not disrespectful. Mary (pbuh) was only out of the picture as far as the Bible stories go but she never left the life of Jesus (pbuh), she remianed an influence in his life until the end. G-d works through all mothers but particularly Mary (pbuh).

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I can't do it Joshua. I can't do what Jesus wants. I love my life. I love my family. I like what I have. I can't lay down my life, I can't abandon my family, I can't sell everything I have and give it to the poor. I can't turn the other cheek. I can't love my enemies. All of these things that Jesus asks I'm unwilling to do. I can't be a Christian. "Saved" doesn't mean jack.

Chris

That is the "crux" of your problem Chris. You don't understand what it means to be a Christian. All you have to do is accept Jesus' gift for you. That is it. You're looking for a "catch" that does not exist.

Consider Joseph when his brothers came to Egypt to buy food. He could have had them put to death on the spot. But he didn't. Instead, he had them bring his father and father's household to Egypt, to be closer to him.

Consider Job, and his losses and 10 times gains. God gave him back ten times over what he had to begin with, simply because he refused to admonish or disavowe the Lord.

Both were betting men, and they bet on God to cover them...they bet wisely.

I bet on the Lord (I don't understand His ways, but I trust Him). According to the world the odds are 6.5 billion to 1 "against".

Those are odds I can live with, and my wager, is my life and my soul...

I'm afraid for my family too Chris. So since I'm not so secure in covering their every contingency, I ask God to step in and cover what I miss...

You'd be amazed at what I missed (I was floored)...

Anyway, the only way to keep your family...is to let go of your family (in your mind and heart, and soul), and let God cover your family for you.

Man plans. God guides man's steps.

v/r

Q

[China Cat Sunflower]

My understanding is that, at the time, what they would do is make up this really thick sort of fermented grape mash and then mix it with water so that the alcohol would kill the parasites in the water. Toward the end of the feast as they ran out of the concentrated mash they would start to mix the "wine" more watery since by then all the drunks were past noticing and to stretch it out. So it makes sense that it would be an odd thing for a batch of good stuff to come out at the end.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I was just trying to be lighthearted Q, not disrespectful. Mary (pbuh) was only out of the picture as far as the Bible stories go but she never left the life of Jesus (pbuh), she remianed an influence in his life until the end. G-d works through all mothers but particularly Mary (pbuh).

Indeed Ma'am. I am quite aware of British humor (humour) lol

me thinks you need to become aware of American irony...

I do enjoy your posts, thoughts and quips.

v/r

Q

[China Cat Sunflower]

But Joshua, how is the Kingdom manifested if no one does the heavy lifting? If every single follower doesn't sacrifice himself and his family and personal aspirations for the sake of following Jesus how does it get done? I could give you twenty texts to this effect, but I'm just asking the question?

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

My understanding is that, at the time, what they would do is make up this really thick sort of fermented grape mash and then mix it with water so that the alcohol would kill the parasites in the water. Toward the end of the feast as they ran out of the concentrated mash they would start to mix the "wine" more watery since by then all the drunks were past noticing and to stretch it out. So it makes sense that it would be an odd thing for a batch of good stuff to come out at the end.

Chris

"Perfect wine" The wine captain was "astounded" at the taste of what he sampled.

You're talking about a hired hand here. He has no business approaching the BrideGroom for any reason, yet again he broke all protocol to question the man of the day, on why he saved the best for last...

The hired hand was more astounded than the groom. The servant saw what the groom had no clue of.

Chris...damn it, the story is about Jesus, and us...get it now?

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

But Joshua, how is the Kingdom manifested if no one does the heavy lifting? If every single follower doesn't sacrifice himself and his family and personal aspirations for the sake of following Jesus how does it get done? I could give you twenty texts to this effect, but I'm just asking the question?

Chris

That is God's problem Chris. There may be a time when we are called to step up to the plate, but in the mean time we learn and grow and increase our Love for our fellow man...

and we learn about and love the Lord, our God and Savior.

That is how it works, and it is a good thing.

v/r

Q

[China Cat Sunflower]

He wants us to drink the good stuff?

No, I get it. I was just thinking about it on a more mundane level.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is God's problem Chris. There may be a time when we are called to step up to the plate, but in the mean time we learn and grow and increase our Love for our fellow man...

That is how it works, and it is a good thing.

v/r

Q

But it all starts out with the sinner's prayer. "Oh my god, I'm a worthless sinner...please help me Jesus." Etc. And then your saved, whatever that is. And then you get to tell everyone else what a piece of crap they are, I guess. I went through that. I came back from the first Gulf War all screwed up. I had that "conversion" experience. It worked. It helped me. But when I got my life back together I started to introspect. I was in therapy so that was kinda part of the process. The more things straightened out the less I needed the emotional crutch. So now I'm doing good. Got a family, a house, two cats and two kids. My brother died but that's how life goes. I don't feel like a sinner. I'm doing everything right. I can't find a reason to do the "saved" thing again. I don't need it to compensate for what I can't be. It seems like Jesus has to be more than that. If not then I can't see the need- for me anyway.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

He wants us to drink the good stuff?

No, I get it. I was just thinking about it on a more mundane level.

Chris

We are, the good stuff. According to God, we are the best that there is. But we don't have all the answers, so trust has to kick in somewhere. Interesting how that little "requirement" gets left off of the pulpit from Sabbath to Sabbath.

I can't blame you your retisence.

But like Indiana Jones, I say "take a leap of faith"...

v/r

Q