Do you think you are liberal? - Page 6

lunamoth · 05-12-2007, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jaded Fool

WOW... that is narrow...

What exactly is it that all christians everywhere have always believed... seems to me that everyday it gets a bit narrower...

Yup. It basically boils down to the Trinity and the Incarnation, that which is affirmed in the Nicene Creed. Also the sacraments of baptism and the Eucharist.

"They are beliefs agreed to by all Christians, and they remain beyond rational explanation; they remain mysteries, and the proper response to mystery is worship."

Quote:

But on a positive note... at least you will be using fewer trees to print you Systematic Theology books... lol

Peace & Love

For some odd reason this does not seem to do anything to lessen the ability of Anglican theologians to fill up books.

Prober · 05-12-2007, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I actually think this is the way the Holy Spirit works, but not that Luther was all right and Catholocism was all wrong. It was a corrrection. We are never/no one perfectly on course, but overall, living in the tension, tacking back and forth into the Wind, we head in the right direction.

We're all more or less on 'good enough' course.

I have to agree. I think maybe it's how fast we nudge the rudder that makes us liberal or conservative. Perhaps we still reach the same harbor...

The Jaded Fool · 05-12-2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

I have to agree. I think maybe it's how fast we nudge the rudder that makes us liberal or conservative. Perhaps we still reach the same harbor...

I like that analogy... but be careful... you might get labeled a heretic or a wolf in sheeps clothing with idea like that... lol

Peace

The Jaded Fool · 05-12-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Yup. It basically boils down to the Trinity and the Incarnation, that which is affirmed in the Nicene Creed. Also the sacraments of baptism and the Eucharist.

"They are beliefs agreed to by all Christians, and they remain beyond rational explanation; they remain mysteries, and the proper response to mystery is worship."

For some odd reason this does not seem to do anything to lessen the ability of Anglican theologians to fill up books.

LOL... so there are pages and pages of fluff?? hehe

Prober · 05-12-2007, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jaded Fool

I like that analogy... but be careful... you might get labeled a heretic or a wolf in sheeps clothing with idea like that... lol

Peace

Label schmabel, IyamwhoIyam!

Thanks, J!

The Jaded Fool · 05-12-2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Label schmabel, IyamwhoIyam!

Thanks, J!

I concur...

peace

AndrewX · 05-12-2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

"They are beliefs agreed to by all Christians, and they remain beyond rational explanation; they remain mysteries, and the proper response to mystery is worship."

Whose quote is this, luna, I missed where this comes from ...

thanks,

andrew

lunamoth · 05-12-2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Whose quote is this, luna, I missed where this comes from ...

thanks,

andrew

Ooops, sorry. It is from a book by Christopher Webber called "Welcome to the Episcopal Church." I meant to post that reference.

AndrewX · 05-12-2007, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Ooops, sorry. It is from a book by Christopher Webber called "Welcome to the Episcopal Church." I meant to post that reference.

Gotcha ... thanks!

littledeer · 05-24-2007, 08:48 AM

Yes I am! I so totally agree! I've had this thought in the back of my mind for a few years and you have put it into words- I am definitely of the Emerging Paradigm BTW could we find an easier and zippier word to use than paradigm?! Hard to spell! But you explain it very well. And how I feel is that I cannot interpret every page of these old glorious words literally. There are a lot of metaphors plus stuff was left out of the Bible due to the political times. My deepest, heartfelt feelings are - and this has been considered VERY radical in some circles - that God is growing and changing as we do. Change to Him so mighty is of course different, I'm not trying to dis here, but really, compare the God of the Old Testament with the God of the New Testament. Frankly (prob a good new topic) I wish we could have another testament! A new prophet. Back to THIS topic--
God as I love Him/Her and am trying to understand, God keeps up with the times, He knows we're not in Israel BC, He cares about us NOW and always, and is more loving and inclusive than He's been given credit for.
--Bambe' from Colorado

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I'm pretty sure that Martin Luther was considered liberal when he wrote his 95 theses in 1517.

Liberal is a relative term, as others above have pointed out.

I like the terminology developed by Marcus Borg in his book, The Heart of Christianity. He describes two Christian paradigms which he calls the Earlier Paradigm and the Emerging Paradigm. Both paradigms take very seriously the centrality, truth and reality of God, Christ, and the Bible in the Christian's life. However, they are distinguished by different approaches to these central aspects of faith. I think it's important to point out that these paradigms are more like poles and that Christians are not flat sterotypes that fit one description or the other, but fall somewhere in between. Having said that though, I think it's also apparent that much of the arguing we see among Christians is caused by our closer identification with one pole or the other, and not seeing the spectrum or the relationship between our beliefs.

The Earlier Paradigm views the Bible as a divine product with divine authority. The Bible is interpretted literal-factually and is seen as a revelation of doctrine and morals. There is a major emphasis on the afterlife and what is the right way to believe or do to be saved.

The Emerging Paradigm views the Bible as a human response to God. The Bible is interpretted historically and metaphorically and its function is sacramental and metaphorical. There is a major emphasis on transformation in this life through relationship with God.

As I said, these are poles of a spectrum. I see myself somewhere in between these poles, probably closer to the emerging paradigm. It's also interesting to note that the Earlier Paradigm is actually not the same as the Orignial or Earliest Paradigm, or what we can know or recreate about the earliest Christian communities. The Emerging and Earlier paradigms described above are twins born of the Enlightenment when Biblical criticism and a scientific view of the world started to gain precedence. It's not possible, IMO, to return to the Christian faith exactly as it was before the Enlightenment, when it was possible to believe in the literal events of the Bible without suppressing reason or being credulous. It is possible, however, to have deep faith with reason and also to be loving and connected to people who may be at a different place on this spectrum of belief.

One key part of this, IMO, is not to necessarily agree with each other, but to at least talk to each other with respect and courtesy. Also, I think it's very possible to worship and work side by side, even when we disagree.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join me, and the world will live as one.