Do you think you are liberal?

[wil]

In talking to a number of folks I find it interesting that those who have gone on to indepth studies of Christianity have some pretty liberal beliefs, but don't consider themselves liberal.

I hear folks with masters and doctorates in theology from various Christian universities...whose words curl the toes of many Christians.

I've had some discussions with folks in monastaries...who study, discuss and contemplate quite a bit...some of what they have to say is definitely not mainstream.

I find it all interesting, often when I run into folks with higher degrees their focus of study becomes so narrow that it is hard to converse. But the theologians seem to become looser and more accepting and open to alternatives as they go further...

Is it just me?

[InLove]

wil--you know the answer is: It depends on how you look at it. The more we see, the more we understand how others see. And then we see our own way. If our religion is personal, we are going to have our own personal views. Some of those views may coincide with what others think--and it can be so surprising! Sometimes I write words that I think are going to be totally bombarded, and then the person I think I would least agree with finds some kind of common idea with me.

I come from a place where the people I know say, "The more education you get, the more difficult it becomes to have real faith" (Or something along those lines). But I think it is not education or riches or knowledge or anything that keeps us from learning...I think it is basically pride, with some fear mixed in. And that can also keep us from speaking up....

InPeace,
InLove

[Prober]

Wil, I'm glad you started this thread. I think of myself as conservative. But since I'm open-minded, I get into trouble with my conservative fellows. This makes me feel more comfortable with liberals with whom I agree less frequently but find more "Christian" in nature (generally speaking).

I believe Truth doesn't feel threatened and being Good is its own reward.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, wil!

Interesting question.

It's probably no surprize I think myself quite conservative on most issues, even bordering reactionary. Perhaps that is where my struggle lies...I seem "liberal" to the conservatives because I am even farther to the right than they are, so I only appear non-mainstream...when the "truth" is, everybody else is liberal to me...heeheehee

I do agree with the assessment that as people become better educated on the Bible; inside, outside and all around, they do tend to become a little more accomodating of other views. Could be the Good Lord softening hearts as people age?

It's hard to tell the extremists apart without a program!

[Prober]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

It's hard to tell the extremists apart without a program!

True...

Should we start a how extreme are you thread?

How about "What's your most extreme view?" That would get people talking...

[Dondi]

I'm a bit more flexible in my beliefs than I was several years ago. My view on God's mercy is less dogmatic and less exclusive. While I believe that sin seprates us from God, I also believe that God takes in account our ignorance in the scriptures and will judge according to the light we have received. However, deliberate unbelief and willful disobedience will be judged harshly.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

It's probably no surprize I think myself quite conservative on most issues, even bordering reactionary. Perhaps that is where my struggle lies...I seem "liberal" to the conservatives because I am even farther to the right than they are, so I only appear non-mainstream...when the "truth" is, everybody else is liberal to me...heeheehee

I can so relate to this, juan. And I see that scale as a circle rather than a line. Kind of like a clock--once it hits noon or midnight, the cycle starts all over again. So at one minute after midnight, I may find my heart ticking right next to someone's whose theology contains some little split-hair difference I just cannot swallow!

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I do agree with the assessment that as people become better educated on the Bible; inside, outside and all around, they do tend to become a little more accomodating of other views. Could be the Good Lord softening hearts as people age?

Well, the education helps. But I really think part of it is that as we grow older, we become ever so more aware that we will not live forever in this existence as we have come to understand it. Maybe we start asking the question, "If I cannot hope for the forgiveness of everyone--if I cannot trust that G-d is more than what I can comprehend--if "He" doesn't love everyone, then where does that leave me??? I truly believe that when we earnestly want to know about the Love, the answer is given. Maybe He knows we will ask.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

It's hard to tell the extremists apart without a program!

Indeed!

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

I'm pretty sure that Martin Luther was considered liberal when he wrote his 95 theses in 1517.

Liberal is a relative term, as others above have pointed out.

I like the terminology developed by Marcus Borg in his book, The Heart of Christianity. He describes two Christian paradigms which he calls the Earlier Paradigm and the Emerging Paradigm. Both paradigms take very seriously the centrality, truth and reality of God, Christ, and the Bible in the Christian's life. However, they are distinguished by different approaches to these central aspects of faith. I think it's important to point out that these paradigms are more like poles and that Christians are not flat sterotypes that fit one description or the other, but fall somewhere in between. Having said that though, I think it's also apparent that much of the arguing we see among Christians is caused by our closer identification with one pole or the other, and not seeing the spectrum or the relationship between our beliefs.

The Earlier Paradigm views the Bible as a divine product with divine authority. The Bible is interpretted literal-factually and is seen as a revelation of doctrine and morals. There is a major emphasis on the afterlife and what is the right way to believe or do to be saved.

The Emerging Paradigm views the Bible as a human response to God. The Bible is interpretted historically and metaphorically and its function is sacramental and metaphorical. There is a major emphasis on transformation in this life through relationship with God.

As I said, these are poles of a spectrum. I see myself somewhere in between these poles, probably closer to the emerging paradigm. It's also interesting to note that the Earlier Paradigm is actually not the same as the Orignial or Earliest Paradigm, or what we can know or recreate about the earliest Christian communities. The Emerging and Earlier paradigms described above are twins born of the Enlightenment when Biblical criticism and a scientific view of the world started to gain precedence. It's not possible, IMO, to return to the Christian faith exactly as it was before the Enlightenment, when it was possible to believe in the literal events of the Bible without suppressing reason or being credulous. It is possible, however, to have deep faith with reason and also to be loving and connected to people who may be at a different place on this spectrum of belief.

One key part of this, IMO, is not to necessarily agree with each other, but to at least talk to each other with respect and courtesy. Also, I think it's very possible to worship and work side by side, even when we disagree.


You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join me, and the world will live as one.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I like the terminology developed by Marcus Borg in his book, The Heart of Christianity. He describes two Christian paradigms which he calls the Earlier Paradigm and the Emerging Paradigm. Both paradigms take very seriously the centrality, truth and reality of God, Christ, and the Bible in the Christian's life. However, they are distinguished by different approaches to these central aspects of faith. I think it's important to point out that these paradigms are more like poles and that Christians are not flat sterotypes that fit one description or the other, but fall somewhere in between. Having said that though, I think it's also apparent that much of the arguing we see among Christians is caused by our closer identification with one pole or the other, and not seeing the spectrum or the relationship between our beliefs.

The Earlier Paradigm views the Bible as a divine product with divine authority. The Bible is interpretted literal-factually and is seen as a revelation of doctrine and morals. There is a major emphasis on the afterlife and what is the right way to believe or do to be saved.

The Emerging Paradigm views the Bible as a human response to God. The Bible is interpretted historically and metaphorically and its function is sacramental and metaphorical. There is a major emphasis on transformation in this life through relationship with God.

Loved your post, Luna. It reminds me of one of my favorite poems.
I think this applies spiritually as well as on the mundane level...


The Road Not Taken - Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth.

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same.

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Much Love,
Mark

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Prober

Loved your post, Luna. It reminds me of one of my favorite poems.
I think this applies spiritually as well as on the mundane level...


The Road Not Taken - Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth.

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same.

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Much Love,
Mark

That's one of my favorites too Mark. My sister has it posted on her old bedroom wall at my parents' house, and my hub and I always stay in her old room when we visit.

[flowperson]

Yes Luna, Mark...wonderful posts. Just IMAGINE how wonderful it all could be.

I also like Peter Gabriel's lyric that goes... "get along with the dreamer's dream".
G-d's the dreamer. The universe is the dream.

flow....

[China Cat Sunflower]

I'm a liberal. I believe that we, the human race, are making progress, and that we must adapt and change in order to evolve toward a greater good. By contrast, I take conservative to mean that we are devolving from a once superior state, and must return to an earlier form of values, ethics, technologies... I don't believe that. The difference, it seems to me, is that one mind-set intends to work forward toward the goal, the other backward.

Chris

[Prober]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I take conservative to mean that we are devolving from a once superior state, and must return to an earlier form of values, ethics, technologies... I don't believe that. The difference, it seems to me, is that one mind-set intends to work forward toward the goal, the other backward.

Chris

As a conservative, I believe we are working forward to complete the return to a perfect state. As in circling the world to advance to your starting point.

I believe that's been the whole aim ever since "the fall".

[flowperson]

Might I be so bold as to suggest "the circle of life"?

flow....

[Prober]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Might I be so bold as to suggest "the circle of life"?

flow....

You know...It's the wheel of fortune...

It's the leap of faith...

It's the band of hope!