Doctors, Priests Form Exorcism Commission

[Pagan-prophet]

I found this in the news:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ly_exorcism_dc

Do you believe that the devil/s can manifest in man? Do you believe exorcism does anything? Is it possible that some people are faking it and are not really possessed? I don’t really have a opinion either way. I do however somewhat believe that spirits can manifest in us, though I believe that they need some form of being invited first. What do you think?

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by Pagan-prophet

I found this in the news:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ly_exorcism_dc

Do you believe that the devil/s can manifest in man? Do you believe exorcism does anything? Is it possible that some people are faking it and are not really possessed? I don’t really have a opinion either way. I do however somewhat believe that spirits can manifest in us, though I believe that they need some form of being invited first. What do you think?

I don't think that exorcism is anything having to do with casting out the devil. But I am afraid just the same of the devil because he is portrayed as capable of doing things like making people bloat up terribly. Even though I am a postgraduate Catholic, just the same if the devil should appear, I will call on the name of Jesus. And the devil will flee.

Psychologists seem to tell us that so-called diabolical possessions can be explained by the phenomena of neuroses and psychoses, abnormal manifestations of man's neurology.

Very serious investigators maintain that accounts of diabolical possessions cannot stand up to critical examination, and they have yet to see one possession that lives up to literary description of witnesses. In other words, witnesses were mistaken or were exaggerating.

I think it won't be long before diabolical possessions as described by witnesses get to be included as macabre acts in the circus.

Susma Rio Sep

[JJM]

My opinion is that possession does occur. While not all things people may see as possession actually are. I think that in a world with religious freedom the government can't recognize anything other than mental disease. I'm not saying that religious freedom is a bad thing I'm very much in favor of it I'm just saying that because mental disease is all most governments can recognize these theological phenomenon aren't taken into full account and most people pass them off as other things. Now I may be bias because I think most psychiatrists/psychologists are full of cr*p. But this allows me to see why people think that possession is full of cr*p and I’m able to understand their position and It is my opinion that far to many things are simply past off as mental disease/disorders. This in my opinion also includes things other than Possession such as ADD just because a person has trouble concentrating doesn’t mean they have a disorder it just means they have trouble concentrating and they shouldn’t be pumped full of drugs. When will it stop? will we soon allow other people to take drugs that make them smarter like steroids for the mind?
__________________________________________________ ______
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

[DrChaos]

If you believe in the Bible, then you have to think possesion occurs. But, whether it is invited or not I'm not so sure about. And, I think about it this way, if the patient will take there time and money to get "exorcized" and it will help them overcome there problem, let them do it. I think that if the patient thinks s/he is cured of the demons, then they will stop acting that way, whether the demons were there or not.

[arthra]

Pagan-prophet wrote:

"Do you believe that the devil/s can manifest in man? Do you believe exorcism does anything? Is it possible that some people are faking it and are not really possessed? I don’t really have a opinion either way. I do however somewhat believe that spirits can manifest in us, though I believe that they need some form of being invited first. What do you think?"

Response:

"Evil spirits" do not have much power in the Baha'i view, as Abdul-Baha said:

"...it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent....

"Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence."


Abdul-Baha also explained:

"Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind--that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements--that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.

The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good."

There is no oppositional force in the universe such as Satan, however people can choose to oppose good and embrace less than good things but by itself evil has no independent reality.

- Art

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by DrChaos

If you believe in the Bible, then you have to think possesion occurs. But, whether it is invited or not I'm not so sure about. And, I think about it this way, if the patient will take there time and money to get "exorcized" and it will help them overcome there problem, let them do it. I think that if the patient thinks s/he is cured of the demons, then they will stop acting that way, whether the demons were there or not.

In my opinion possession afflicts only people who are believers or susceptible to the idea of possession. Of course believers will tell us that non-believers need not be possessed, they are already possessed but not spectacularly in a bizarre manner. Another emperor's new robe?

Do we have cases of possession among peoples who never even so much as heard of possession?


Susma Rio Sep

[Pagan-prophet]

Art said,

"Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind--that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements--that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.

The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good."

I don’t know what he thought evil was but in my opinion and the dictionary’s opinion, evil is not really a noun. I see the word evil as an action done that harms another. I can make an action that is good because it harms none. But if I make an action that harms someone else it is an evil one. Its not really that simple but its close enough. If there is no evil then what is good? What you said about the scorpion and serpents is somewhat true however what if they poison you just to see you die (no purpose involved)? That does not benefit the scorpion/serpent other than twisted entertainment. I believe that that is what evil is.

(Satanists argue that there is no good in the world only evil because they claim that it is impossible to make an action that harms none. They say that every action we make, is another step in decaying the world. (They also say that it is impossible to make an action that is not selfish.))

I believe that there needs to be good and evil in the world just like night and day.

[arthra]

Recall Pagan your original question:

"Do you believe that the devil/s can manifest in man? Do you believe exorcism does anything? Is it possible that some people are faking it and are not really possessed? I don’t really have a opinion either way. I do however somewhat believe that spirits can manifest in us, though I believe that they need some form of being invited first. What do you think?"

I was responding to this issue you initially raised as a Baha'i and hope you realize that i was quoting Abdul-Baha and seeking to represent the Baha'i view on the subject.

My Oxford Amercian Dictionary classifies "evil" as an adjective, a noun and an adverb... An example given as a "noun" would be the following:

"An evil thing, sin, harm" another example: "An evil eye..." etc.

Philosophers generally use the term "Evil" as a noun and your statement that "I believe that there needs to be good and evil in the world just like night and day" would likely be termed "dualism", which was championed in earlier ages by Zoroastrians and even Manichaeans who believed life was a battle ground between good and evil and this concept is found in the descriptions of battles between the forces of light and darkness found in the Book of Revelation and even in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other places...Also those who hold that there is a Devil as opposed to God or Ahriman vrs. Ahura Mazda, etc.

Baha'is don't really hold to this view but one which holds that Light or God is a positive force like the Sun and that there are only after that shadows and diminishing light as one leaves the Source...just as the Sun's rays would be weaker on Pluto than say the Earth and so on. Darkness can only retreat before the Light.

Your analogy:

"What you said about the scorpion and serpents is somewhat true however what if they poison you just to see you die (no purpose involved)? That does not benefit the scorpion/serpent other than twisted entertainment. I believe that that is what evil is."

Again, this was an analogy used by Abdul-Baha who I was quoting... We know from biology of course that serpents and scorpions don't act "just to see you die" and are not really capable of enjoying "twisted entertainment" but of themselves are only capable of self defence or defending perhaps their nests... and only blundering humans that are carelessly plodding along and happen to almost step on these creatures are likely to receive their stings or bites.

Your reference to Satanism:

"They say that every action we make, is another step in decaying the world. (They also say that it is impossible to make an action that is not selfish.))"

May be true for them... I don't really know much about them other than some peripheral material I've read. But I regard Satanists as a kind of negative reflection of a distorted view of Christianity and they would not really have much existence without a distorted kind of Christianity. But that's only my personal view.

In friendship,

- Art

[Pagan-prophet]

I was responding to this issue you initially raised as a Baha'i and hope you realize that i was quoting Abdul-Baha and seeking to represent the Baha'i view on the subject.

You are absolutely right… I apologies for snapping at you as I did.

We know from biology of course that serpents and scorpions don't act "just to see you die" and are not really capable of enjoying "twisted entertainment" but of themselves are only capable of self defence or defending perhaps their nests... and only blundering humans that are carelessly plodding along and happen to almost step on these creatures are likely to receive their stings or bites.

I was trying to make an analogy from serpents and scorpions to man. Are you saying that there has never been a human that has or does kill/hurt another for “twisted entertainment”? I believe that there is such a thing as a bully. A bully finds enjoyment out of pain. This to me is evil. That is all I was trying to say.

And a question: If there is no evil then does that mean that nobody can ever make a morally incorrect choice?

[arthra]

Pagan-prophet wrote:

I was trying to make an analogy from serpents and scorpions to man. Are you saying that there has never been a human that has or does kill/hurt another for “twisted entertainment”? I believe that there is such a thing as a bully. A bully finds enjoyment out of pain. This to me is evil. That is all I was trying to say.

And a question: If there is no evil then does that mean that nobody can ever make a morally incorrect choice?

Reply:

I think the evil that we have in the world is mostly from man who has turned away from God but ultimately there is no such thing in our view (the Baha'i view that is) as an independent power in the universe that we can say is "evil"...

The "bully" may be in his own eyes only be playing out his reaction to having been abused himself at an earlier age and needs treatment.

Children pass through stages where they see no limits to their property and also can pass through a stage where they believe the whole universe should revolve around them and be narcissistic... so people who are acting this way are perhaps stuck in various stages of developement... ultimately, they all have the potential we Baha'is believe to become more truly human and developed spiritual beings.

- Art

[QueryGuy]

Originally Posted by Pagan-prophet

I was trying to make an analogy from serpents and scorpions to man. Are you saying that there has never been a human that has or does kill/hurt another for “twisted entertainment”? I believe that there is such a thing as a bully. A bully finds enjoyment out of pain. This to me is evil. That is all I was trying to say.

Hmmm....Baha'is believe that evil is the absence of good, just like cold is the absence of heat. Those who take pleasure in others pain are doing themselves a world of hurt spiritually. That bully may think the "cold" of evil is warmth, but then again it always feels nice and warm right before you freeze to death. So yes, fostering the void of evil by keeping good away does have very real consequences and can be very damaging.

QG