Dream's Pauline Defense Initiative

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dream

You probably are right. Also, since noticing the similarity between the Passover Home and a City of Refuge (Joshua 20:6) it jumped out at me in John that when Caiaphas prophesied about Jesus' death for the nation.(John 11:51) The writer of John specifically mentioned that the prophecy was not about Caiaphas' own death, suggesting that perhaps there is more to a high priest's death than just release of prisoners in the Cities of Refuge. The writer of Hebrews makes a big deal out of the high priest's death, and that does seem related to the Passover lamb.

Still no whipping boy, though. I don't know of any sacrifices listed in Leviticus or elsewhere that are intended to obtain forgiveness for breaking one of the Ten Commandments. From what I can tell, to atone for breaking these requires repentance, prayer, sometimes restoration of lost property or other compensations, marrying the girl, etc. The sacrifices relate to Peace, Purification, Thanks, and Burnt. I do not see a 'Forgiveness' offering, besides the prayer of an intercessor such as Solomon, Daniel, Jesus, etc. It is hard to imagine Paul saying otherwise.

The sacrifices made to God in the old testament were between God and individuals who sought atonement. And if the sacrifice was done correctly, then God was pleased with the aroma of the sacrifice (the intent of the one seeking forgiveness). But God wanted something more. He wanted all of mankind, past present and future, hence a "messiahah" was promised to make the ultimate sacrifice for all of man.

Paul, had quite a challenge convincing people that the sacrifice had been made, and God accepted wholey that sacrifice. And through that sacrifice, God and man are once again re-united.

Man is like a child, and has to learn, but can only learn so much at a time, concerning the awe of God. The old testament shows us how God was bringing man along in learning of God, a bit at a time.

Even today, if we were to see the glory of God as he really is, it would destroy us.

[Dream]

I am retiring my defense of Paul. He's dead, after all.

[juantoo3]

Why would you retire from defending Paul, Dream?

Without Paul, there would be no Christians. Or if there were, they would all have to be Jews first. (Not that that would be a bad thing, but Christianity would look a whole lot different without Paul).

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Juantoo3

Why would you retire from defending Paul, Dream?

Without Paul, there would be no Christians. Or if there were, they would all have to be Jews first. (Not that that would be a bad thing, but Christianity would look a whole lot different without Paul).

A perfected defense, assuming there is one, would be to prove Paul's letters are in accordance with Torah. It is only possible to prove this to yourself, because it depends upon Torah study. It has to be done by each person interested, and besides Paul would hate to think that believers were arguing over him. I think he would rather be misunderstood. We are not to be baptized into the name of Paul but in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. (Paul says 'Baptized into Christ' which is the same as being baptized into Torah, I think.) He would be Ok with it if we read him for clues and insights but not as taking his letters as replacing Torah itself. With this in mind, I've retired my public defense as it could provoke meaningless arguments and could not be understood by the reader without Torah knowledge in the first place. Also, based on statements in Ecclesiastes ("Beware!") it could not be transmitted to future generations and could not be authorative.

I Corinthians
1:13-14 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius;

Acts
17:10-11
The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroea; and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Ecclesiastes
2:18-19
I hated all my toil in which I had toiled under the sun, seeing that I must leave it to the man who will come after me; and who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will be master of all for which I toiled and used my wisdom under the sun. This also is vanity.

12:11-13
The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings which are given by one Shepherd. My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.

(notice how Ecc 12 says 'given by one Shepherd' and compare it to Paul's rhetorical question 'Is Christ divided?')

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Dream

12:11-13
The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings which are given by one Shepherd. My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.

It's not often I have my own arguments argued back at me...touche!

I agree that in the end it is irrelevent to salvation. Even so, we are admonished to put away childish things as we mature, and to grow in the Word of G-d.

Ultimately I think I see the writings of Paul a lot like a commentary by a respected Rabbi...I think Paul lays out some wise advice, and some foresighted interpretations, and there is wisdom in his words. But are those words Divine? I think Paul would blush and deny that they were Divine. I think he tells us in no uncertain terms that his words are his opinion, borne of experience, but that he was least worthy of all to be counted among the apostles.