Drugs and spirituality

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

You should see the poo I get into at E-Sangha.

Ah, e-sangha. I stop by on occasion. Lots of poo--of the stale, traditional variety--to be flung, methinks. Several highbrow Buddhist types over there. Often a real yawn-fest.

Originally Posted by samabhudi

I'm not a good example of a Buddhist.

I'm glad to hear you realize this. Being a knowingly un-Buddhist Buddhist is a respectful sort of thing to do, in my book. I'd tend to rate it higher than being a Buddhist's Buddhist, but that's just my generally heretical opinion. Not that there's any heresay in Buddhism... oh, no... who would ever think such a thing?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

nothing too relevant to add to the discussion at this time and place... however...

should a reader be interested in such things... this site is one of, if not THE, best site on the 'net for this type of information:

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml


now... i'd rather be sort of general with what i'm going to say next... however, i can address some specific queries should it be required.

let's confine our converstation to d-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) for the moment.

to have an actual "psychedelic" experience takes a dosage near 150mgs for most people. actual dosage would vary based on body chemistry.. in any event... dosages below 150mgs produce what are referred to as "museum" experiences. they are mild enough that a person could go out in public fairly easily.

now.. the experience that one has at 150mgs is just touching the psychedelic threshold... for a full blown psychedelic experience.. you know... audio, visual and tactile hallucinations requires dosages, in my experience, that approach 400mgs and higher. there is, of course, some variation involved.. and whilst it is generally true that a dosage of 400mgs is required, some people experience a very strong effect with dosages in the 200's.

dosages that exceed 1,000mgs will produce profound psychedelic experiences that can reshape your world view and change your perspective on life, the universe and everything.

[samabudhi]

Ah, e-sangha. I stop by on occasion. Lots of poo--of the stale, traditional variety--to be flung, methinks. Several highbrow Buddhist types over there. Often a real yawn-fest.

Tell me about it. They try to be less of an open forum and more of a front page for prospective Buddhists. But there are some clever people, and many people, so I try anyway.

I haven't tried LSD in very large doses. I'm sure nothing over 200g, but I can't be sure. That's the problem with it being underground.
The good thing is you need a hell of a lot to kick the bucket. Elephants are apparently quite intolerable to the stuff. Mice on the other hand can handle dosages exceeding our own.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

I haven't tried LSD in very large doses. I'm sure nothing over 200g, but I can't be sure. That's the problem with it being underground.
The good thing is you need a hell of a lot to kick the bucket. Elephants are apparently quite intolerable to the stuff. Mice on the other hand can handle dosages exceeding our own.

Namaste samabudhi,

there are only two confirmed reports of LSD causing death in humans. the first one was a person that injected over 40,000mgs and the other person mistook the powedered form for cocaine and ingested over 20,000mgs through the nose. this second person, however, may or may not be true. there is still some doubt as the medical records for this haven't been seen yet. it's anecdotal at this point in time.

[samabudhi]

HA!!! LOL.

I just realised I've been using grams, Vaj has been using milligrams, and the truth is it's micrograms!
Scary stuff!

[I, Brian]

Mushrooms have always seemed a much better trip - not only do you have more control over the dosage, but the trip itself seems more "organic". You don't have to worry about mushrooms being dud, either. And they're free.

Haven't done any for a few years, though, and have no plans to do any again. At the end of the day, hallucinogenics serve as a means to explore different levels of our own consciousness - it's like our everyday consciousness is nothing more than the ripples on the surface of a deeper sea, and that hallucinogenics can take us under the waters and show us something of where the waves well up from.

The most interesting part is how it can show the most naked and fundamental expressions your own consciousness, and just how powerful these are - and how fragile our concept of reality actually is if a few little mushrooms can completely destroy your sense of it.

The point of the original question, though, is as to whether the insights and experiences of a "trip" can be argued to have any source outside of the self - ie, is there something larger than the chemical experience involved? In truth, and in answering my own question from my own persective, I would say that in life without hallucinogenics we can experience these moments of revelation and creativity without chemical stimulation - when somebody composes a piece of music, writing a story, or an original artwork, there is some strange inexplicable process of inspiration taking place that has often been seen as due to an external Divine influence - the Muses of Ancient Greece are a clear expression of this. When a person trips they are as open to this process, but it simply takes different form in terms of how it is perceived.

So - does a trip in itself offer anything new in terms of receiving Divine Revelation? Is eating psylocibe mushrooms going to put someone on a clear and easy road to God? No, I don't believe so. Ultimately, hallucinogenics change the way we perceive things - this is the part that is hardest to communicate to those who have never tripped, the complete deconstruction of reality as we normally perceive it - but it is the process of changing our perception that we can be made most aware of the various influences upon our minds. Hallucinogenics can provide a momentary respite from those personal and cultural pressures that shape us - they can be more openly noticed and explored, even cast off, and as the tripper moves deeper into their own sea of consciousness they can examine something of the pure source of their own sense of being. But that being of consciousness remains a part of the physical, living, world - a complex product of physiology, psychology, and culture.

Hallucinogenics are a tool - a way of exploring the mind - but the exploration is strictly personal - you explore the subjective, not the objective. And yet, as in life, there are ways in which the inexplicable touches us. When we trip it simply touches us in different ways. It remains an individual task to explore this in an individual way, to achieve an individual understanding of it. For some hallucinogenics can be good for that, but as with all good tools, they have their limitations.

2c.

[samabudhi]

So - does a trip in itself offer anything new in terms of receiving Divine Revelation? Is eating psylocibe mushrooms going to put someone on a clear and easy road to God?

I read an essay once which talked about how we interpret the psychedelic experience. It went into examples of how different groups of people saw different things from the same drug. Christians, for example, would see it as meeting God. Animists would see it as meeting with the spirits.

An interesting fact that I heard about Ayahuasca, used by the Amazonians, is that the visions are the same as that seen by people in completely different areas on the globe. It apparently gives one the power to astral travel, as the tribes people were describing things that they had never come into contact with, being so isolated, such as cars.

[servelan]

I'm a bit of a Terence McKenna fan and he would say that you can't do it without the drug - that is the whole point, becuase there are places you can get to only with the drug. You wouldn't want to get there without becuase it would be far too alarming. You need the drug as a sort of marker.

I was very involved with a Buddhist group for about 3 years, some years ago and have been exploring psychedelics for about 1 year. Still very much a beginner in both respects but for me the psychedelics are where it's happening - psilocybin in particular.

Mankind is in trouble and we need to raise the consciousness of individuals to cause a larger change. Psychedelics are the only thing, as far as I am aware of, that can change people around quickly enough. If we had 10 years to sit and meditate or find some other way that would be great but we don't have the luxury of that amount of time.

btw excellent discussion!

[Bandit]

eh?

puff puff, pass pass. dont deny your dosage

the more you take, the better you feel...the more spiritual you become?

2 cents worth

[Chezz]

Originally Posted by Bandit

eh?

puff puff, pass pass. dont deny your dosage

the more you take, the better you feel...the more spiritual you become?

2 cents worth

word,
i smoke marijuana on pretty much a frequent basis , i find it helps me connect with myself. sometime i meditate with it also.
i dont take any chemical whatsoever meaning i dont take advil for pain etc. etc. i belive that nature is here for a reason

speaking of psycho-active drugs i do also smoke Salvia Divinorum(leaf not extract that is chemicly filtered and bleached). it is legal (canada) here. i smoke the leaf and i have had "journeys" with my inner self these are complete 'trips' if you will. meaning at the time i loose all my senses and travel to another place (where? i dont know , but it is beutiful)
and after that i guess you can say i went all spiritual and religious damn man and im only 18!

dont get me wrong im not another "druggy" i strongly belive that natural psychoactive plants are not to be abused.

[servelan]

Originally Posted by Bandit

eh?

puff puff, pass pass. dont deny your dosage

the more you take, the better you feel...the more spiritual you become?

2 cents worth

Hi Bandit,
It's not about feeling better the more you take because it's not about "getting off your head" - it's about experiencing more. Often this is terrifying as much as it is jawdroppingly beautiful and ecstatic. The mushroom teaches you a lesson and you can learn from it or you can ignore it.

There is no doubt that you can contact the transcendental through psychedelics. The evidence for this is great and it can be proved repeatedly and experientially. The more I personally experience this and learn about other people's experiences the more amazed I am. If you want proof of the spiritual existing and the total weirdness of what can only be called The Other, then psychedelics can show you this.

Anybody who denies this hasn't actually had the experience. You cannot prove what I am saying without having had the experience. Language is inadequate in trying to communicate what is going on.

[earl]

Since I'm only weighing in at the tail end of this thread, may have missed that these points have already been made. Pschoactive drug use for "spiritual development" purposes has spawned a number of thoughtful books exploring the pros & cons in recent years form 1 by Christian comparative religion scholar, Huston Smith, to a Buddhist-oriented 1, "Zig Zag Zen." Those books tend to say that used "properly" with the right intention and guidane may have some utilitarian purpose. But thse authors also point out that no "pill" will accomplish the hard work of evoloving ourselves. Basically put, "what goes up must come down." As 1 of my favorite contemporary american Buddhist authors, Surya Das, has put it, "enlightenment" is about getting free, not getting "high, " meaning loosening the constrictions of our ego knots, not obtaining particular temporary spiritual highs. Take care, Earl

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Chezz

word,
i smoke marijuana on pretty much a frequent basis , i find it helps me connect with myself. sometime i meditate with it also.
i dont take any chemical whatsoever meaning i dont take advil for pain etc. etc. i belive that nature is here for a reason

speaking of psycho-active drugs i do also smoke Salvia Divinorum(leaf not extract that is chemicly filtered and bleached). it is legal (canada) here. i smoke the leaf and i have had "journeys" with my inner self these are complete 'trips' if you will. meaning at the time i loose all my senses and travel to another place (where? i dont know , but it is beutiful)
and after that i guess you can say i went all spiritual and religious damn man and im only 18!

dont get me wrong im not another "druggy" i strongly belive that natural psychoactive plants are not to be abused.

hi Chezz

yes i know about these things. glad you are not a druggy & just a part time leaf roller & welcome to the boards

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by servelan

Hi Bandit,
It's not about feeling better the more you take because it's not about "getting off your head" - it's about experiencing more. Often this is terrifying as much as it is jawdroppingly beautiful and ecstatic. The mushroom teaches you a lesson and you can learn from it or you can ignore it.

There is no doubt that you can contact the transcendental through psychedelics. The evidence for this is great and it can be proved repeatedly and experientially. The more I personally experience this and learn about other people's experiences the more amazed I am. If you want proof of the spiritual existing and the total weirdness of what can only be called The Other, then psychedelics can show you this.

Anybody who denies this hasn't actually had the experience. You cannot prove what I am saying without having had the experience. Language is inadequate in trying to communicate what is going on.

hi servelan & welcome aboard.

i know about the shrooms & blotter & the crystals & the leaf(s) & the up & the down & the push & the pull & the maze & the colors & the lines & the laughing & the mind alterations...& I also know about the OTHER.
these things are temporary & do not bring inner peace or IMO, make us spiritual but they might temporarily wake us up. it is what we do after the party that matters.

just be careful there, ya hear?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by earl

Since I'm only weighing in at the tail end of this thread, may have missed that these points have already been made. Pschoactive drug use for "spiritual development" purposes has spawned a number of thoughtful books exploring the pros & cons in recent years form 1 by Christian comparative religion scholar, Huston Smith, to a Buddhist-oriented 1, "Zig Zag Zen." Those books tend to say that used "properly" with the right intention and guidane may have some utilitarian purpose. But thse authors also point out that no "pill" will accomplish the hard work of evoloving ourselves. Basically put, "what goes up must come down." As 1 of my favorite contemporary american Buddhist authors, Surya Das, has put it, "enlightenment" is about getting free, not getting "high, " meaning loosening the constrictions of our ego knots, not obtaining particular temporary spiritual highs. Take care, Earl

nice post earl. i agree with all of this . drugs do not make us free. A lot of them make us bound.