Drugs and spirituality

[soma]

Thank you for the welcome. The food we eat, our bodies and the world around us is made of chemicals and I think they can be a bridge to the spiritual, but once that bridge is crossed there is no need to cross it again and again. It means it is time to go on pass the bridge with appreciation that the bridge brought one to a higher path beyond the physical, beyond chemicals, and into the spiritual. There are many people on the spiritual path that crossed the bridge and there are others who took the ferry. Thank God we have so many ways for so many personalities.

[Mathghamhain]

In South America the Indians that drink a tea from the Ayahuasca vine(call by the Incas “the vine of the dead), one Medicine man said it is to show new Medicine Men were they are going. Experienced Medicine man should have no need to take it because they should be able to go there with out the drink.

Most Native American Spiritual exercises are awareness exercises, to think that they have to take drugs to be spiritual to me is like a cousin of mine that was into reading “Carlos Castaneda” & believed that when he got stoned he was being Spiritual.

As for Peyote it is brewed as a tea to & I found this from a NA forum & had a link to the McLean hospital but I can not put links on just yet.

Study Finds No Psychological or Cognitive Deficits among Native Americans Who Use Peyote Regularly in Religious Settings

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
November 04, 2005

Belmont, MA - Native Americans who use the hallucinogen peyote regularly in connection with religious ceremonies show no evidence of brain damage or psychological problems, report researchers at Harvard-affiliated McLean Hospital.

In fact, members of the Navajo tribe who regularly use peyote actually scored significantly better on several measures of overall mental health than did subjects from the same tribe who were not members of the religious group and did not use the hallucinogen, according to a paper published in the Nov. 4 issue of Biological Psychiatry.

"We found no evidence that these Native Americans had residual neurocognitive problems. Despite lifelong participation in the peyote church, they performed just as well on mental tests as those who had never used peyote,'' said the study's first author John Halpern, MD, of McLean Hospital's Biological Psychiatry Laboratory. The study was funded, in part, by the National Institute on Drug Abuse.

Beyond that, the peyote users scored better on several measures of the Rand Mental Health Inventory (RMHI), a test used to diagnose psychological problems and determine overall mental health, he said. Among the RMHI scales are measures of anxiety, depression, loss of behavioral or emotional control, and psychological distress. Halpern emphasized that the better scores among peyote users were not necessarily attributable to the use of peyote itself, but more likely due to the social and psychological benefits of being members of the Native American Church community.

The study, which took five years to complete, looked at 61 members of the Native American Church (NAC), who regularly used the hallucinogenic cactus and had each ingested it at least 100 times as part of their religion. They were compared on a battery of tests with 79 Navajos who reported minimal use of peyote, and 36 tribe members who had past problems with alcohol but who were now sober.

The former alcohol users scored significantly worse, compared to the other two groups, on every scale of the mental health test and on two tests that looked at memory.

"Within the peyote group, total lifetime peyote use was not significantly associated with neuropsychological performance," concluded the paper. "We found no evidence of psychological or cognitive deficits among Native Americans using peyote regularly in a religious setting.''

The paper warned, however, that the conclusions should not be generalized to those who use hallucinogenic drugs in illicit settings. There are 300,000 Native Americans who regularly use peyote as a religious sacrament and are allowed to do so by law.

"This study applies only to Native Americans in this church," said Harrison G. Pope, Jr., MD, director of McLean's Biological Psychiatry Laboratory and senior author of the study. "From our data, we cannot say what the effects of peyote might be in any other group."

McLean Hospital, consistently ranked the nation's top psychiatric hospital by U.S. News & World Report, is an affiliate of Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital and a member of Partners HealthCare.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Can spritual experiences through drug use be regarded as objectively real?

Go take some DMT... Then come back here and ask that question again.....

[earl]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Go take some DMT... Then come back here and ask that question again.....

Can't say I ever have-or any other psychedelic for that matter. But as to DMT-ever read the book by a psychiatrist by the name of Rick Strassman? His 1 and only book published was re to his research with the drug & associated speculation. I read the thing. Here's the guy's website:

Rick Strassman

have a good one, earl

[earl]

I'd read through the guy's website a while back and it escaped my attention then. However, I just noticed an interesting coincidence in a statement he makes here:
Rick Strassman

as re his view that the fetus releases natural DMT 49 days after conception thereby marking the entry of the spirit into the form as in traditional Buddhist belief it was thought that the mindstream took 49 days to traverse the post-death bardo realms to enter into another "birth." Then again the guy had long studied Buddhism. earl

[17th Angel]

Interesting site.... DMT- Spiritual molecule lol, that isn't even close :\ DMT is just... Perfect. no wonder they say "god lives within you..." Yeah he sure does, and he calls himself Dimethltryptamine..... *bows humbly*

[AndreG]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

We are all no doubt are various hallucinogenics have traditional use in various cultures, but I'd like to ask a particular and pertinent question:

Can spritual experiences through drug use be regarded as objectively real?

The importance of this question is that I'd like to pursue issues of physical reductionism against the conscious experience.

Simply put: because we know that hallucinagenics physically affect the brain, then can spiritual experiences from use of hallucinagenics really make claim to be an exploration of anything truly beyond the self?

The root of this question is the relationship between our physical bodies, consciousness, and the "reality" of the spiritual experience.

A discussion point.

I have read studies of sitting meditation affecting the brain. Deep breathing has physical effects on the brain. If spirituality is experienced during pranayama or through a practice of mindfulness, how is that different than through ingesting a substance.

Drinking ayahuasca, watching the breath, practicing Asana or Pranayama, not too sure what the issue would be if all of those paths lead to the same place.

[nativeastral]

In this article the researcher was told at the end of his journey into sacred plants, ''you go deeper into the physical to get to the infinite'. It seemed like a valuable teaching and one l had come a long way to receive'
COLORS

[the breeze]

I haven't read the complete thread and I've never used so-called mind altering drugs but ...

There seems to be an assumption behind the thread that there's a matter/spirit duality. I'd say there are just types of consciousness (not levels), one of which makes the dualism seem very real. If consciousness shifts then reality moves with it. A shift in consciousness can be induced by relaxation, music, meditation, sleep and drugs amongst other things. From different vantage points reality looks different, the causal connections we accept as obvious disappear and are replaced by connections our normal waking consciousness cannot process or accept.

How things appear just depends on where you're looking at them from. From a certain vantage point science seems to be correct. From another vantage point it's completely irrelevant.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by earl

I'd read through the guy's website a while back and it escaped my attention then. However, I just noticed an interesting coincidence in a statement he makes here:
Rick Strassman

as re his view that the fetus releases natural DMT 49 days after conception thereby marking the entry of the spirit into the form as in traditional Buddhist belief it was thought that the mindstream took 49 days to traverse the post-death bardo realms to enter into another "birth." Then again the guy had long studied Buddhism. earl

Wow far out dude! Like exactly 49 days ?, like 1176 hours? like 70,560 minutes?, like 4,233,600 seconds? Come on man I gotta know.... tell me now!!!

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by nativeastral

In this article the researcher was told at the end of his journey into sacred plants, ''you go deeper into the physical to get to the infinite'. It seemed like a valuable teaching and one l had come a long way to receive'
COLORS

lol... it was a joke before but maybe I got a psychic message!! You know peyote and liberties contain exactly the same alkaloid? And your posts have been a bit trippy lately... All praise sillycybin

[nativeastral]

jings it's certainly in the air with threads popping up but l've yet to imbibe any. It was on a rupert Sheldrake 'evolutionary mind' video l wanted to post on the truth thread as it reminded me of the memes spoken of and how humans have been on the earth for so long without the language as we know it [and therefore the concepts we cannot ordinarily unshackle]; and then this 'galactic' guy T.Mckenna started talking about the mushroom... then another video l got round to watching by david Wilcock, which l thought was about 2012, got round to discussing the ubiquitus symbology of the pine cone/pineal gland and DMT...
That video on buddhism and psychedelics was very enjoyable and surfing the net one can see the growing emergence of the use of these drugs in healing and consciousness awareness/awakening. shucks even alistair Appleton of 'escape to the country' is a fan of ayahuasca; as an facilitator to experiencing memories/the unconscious it has great therapeutic potential for past traumas but like anything setting and intention frames the whole experience.

[Dean_Fox]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

We are all no doubt are various hallucinogenics have traditional use in various cultures, but I'd like to ask a particular and pertinent question:

Can spritual experiences through drug use be regarded as objectively real?

The importance of this question is that I'd like to pursue issues of physical reductionism against the conscious experience.

Simply put: because we know that hallucinagenics physically affect the brain, then can spiritual experiences from use of hallucinagenics really make claim to be an exploration of anything truly beyond the self?

The root of this question is the relationship between our physical bodies, consciousness, and the "reality" of the spiritual experience.

A discussion point.

As someone who has experimented with a few drugs as well as some deep meditation I can tell you this.

The physical effects of some of the milder hallucinogenics are not dissimilar to the effects of deep meditation or contemplative prayer. So is a physical effect induced by deep meditation any more real than one induced by a mild hallucinogenic? I think they are the same.

As to stronger hallucinogenic drugs the effect is to cause a kind of chemical brain storm which totally distorts the senses. Under the influence of such chemicals one can hear colours, see sounds and smell sounds; synaesthesia is a documented disorder in which people perceive sensory inputs differently to the majority.

One can see what one imagines, which is great if one can control what one imagines and not so good if one can't. One can also get a feeling that what one is experiencing is all very "profound". It is clear that "profound" spiritual experience is something the brain generates under certain conditions.

Is it real? I would say the drug experience is no less real than that experience during deep meditation, contemplative prayer, speaking in tongues, chanting mantra's etc.

I don't believe it is the spirit of God moving through you though, it is simply a state one can achieve through various techniques which can include less spiritual ones such as being at a rave concert where trance music is playing. Beware of any organisation selling this experience as some divine proof of God.

[Mike Maybury]

It seems to me safer to calm the mind with meditation and contemplation. Even restricting food, as in fasting, seems a fairly safe thing to do ( probably good for our health as well!)
In all the above, your experiences might be said to be genuine, whether you call it spiritual or not. Taking drugs would seem a less reliable way to reach any real conclusions. After all any fool can take drugs!
Personally, at a young age (15) I found that Yoga breathing and meditation enabled me to realise the Oneness of Life, or Unity. There was even, after a couple of years a 'realisation'. Was it true, or not? All I know is that it altered the course of my life. At 74 I look back on a varied and interesting life, which changed dramatically at age 40, without any such 'spiritual' practices.
Having been wholefood vegetarian since age 17, I can point to a virtually disease free life ('flu once as an adult). Although now a firm atheist I am fascinated by the way religions have developed, divided and been interpreted and misinterpreted over the years.
I cannot pass on any experiences of drug use, as I have avoided all such as alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee, as well as the ones which are illegal etc. When reading of others lives, I consider myself to be very lucky- is there such a thing as luck, or do we make it ourselves? I consider that I have lived the equivalent of about three lives already, and I may live even longer. At present nothing major is going wrong, as in aches and pains, stiff joints etc. No- it's not down to yoga! It changed my life early on, by opening my mind towards respect for others and all creatures.
Even simple exercise, like walking and dancing, creates all the hormones and other chemicals within my brain and body that it seems to need. I never get a hangover or 'downer' as after alcohol or drugs.
Because I am a new contributor to this site I am not permitted to put a link to a Facebook Group, started by other people, about part of my life and activities.

[Dean_Fox]

Originally Posted by Mike Maybury

Taking drugs would seem a less reliable way to reach any real conclusions. After all any fool can take drugs!

Sure, any fool can take drugs but does that fact invalidate the experience or make it any less than one experienced through meditation?

The biggest downside to taking drugs though is that once started the experience cannot be readily stopped.