Easter Pagan

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mee

the Bible does warn Christians against adulterating pure worship with man-made traditions. This would apply especially to a tradition, such as Easter, that is laced with pagan customs and the ancient rites of false religions

The apostle Paul warned Christians against the introduction of man-made traditions into the congregation when he said: "Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ."—Colossians 2:8.

according to Bible teaching, the arrangement for our salvation includes Jesus’ sacrifice of his perfect life, his resurrection, and his presenting the value of his sacrifice to God in heaven. All these elements are important. (Hebrews 7:25; 9:11-14) Jesus commanded his followers to celebrate the anniversary of his death. It is the only event Scripturally commanded to be memorialized by Christians. i suppose it depends whether we want to please God and stick to the bible or not . everyone to their own .

yes i know, but the easter bunny & coloring eggs does not prevent me from worshipping & loving Jesus. I can sing 'at the cross' & still eat a colored hard boiled egg & tuck a little story book about the bible into the easter basket.
these things are not mixed into the service at our church. they are done at home for the children.

there are many traditions that go along with each holiday, like buying a new pair of shoes or a suit & the women wear easter bonnets.

[didymus]

According to the synoptics it took place on Nisan 15.

[Basstian]

I dont want to offend anyone on this issue so I am going to try to be gentle.

I myself observe the Lords supper on the passover. And thats it thats all. I am also a sabbath keeping Christian. Now how I came to these conclusions is I decided to search the Bible only for my faith and not follow the traditional path.

I see alot of things in Christianity that remind me of the Idols hid in the tents of Gods people.
I think you should study about Tammuz about Mithras about Nimrod and Semetrias Ishtar and alot of other gods.
The rabbits the eggs the fertility spring sunrise services even the old hot cross buns that used to be baked all of it from ancient religions and traditions that crept into Christianity.

Another thing Jesus Did Rise on the first day of the week. That shows me he rested even in death on the Sabbath but that is so often left out of the story. And He did so at passover.
Now none of these are salvation issues but do have alot to do with how close do you want to get to the truth. Do you want it bad enough to throw out all the traditions of man and like Israel had to do so many times be read the word and learn all over?

I dont celebrate easter or christmas but will fellowship with my brethren anyday of the week.
If anybody takes this as a personal judgement on my part please believe me its not. It became a choice for me and done out of wanting to rightly divide the word of truth and to work out my own salvation.

Paul said flee from Idoltary I think that warning got lost over time and thats why we see these traditions of men.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Basstian!

For what its worth, you're not alone. I agree 100%.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Didymus!

Originally Posted by didymus

According to the synoptics it took place on Nisan 15.

Very good, this is as is was meant to be from the books of Moses. So, when was Nisan 1?

[didymus]

I give, when is it?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

I give, when is it?

Nisan and Rosh Chodesh Nisan - In Relation to Other Months of the Year
1 Nisan (30 days - Rosh Chodesh always 1 day)
2 Iyar (29 days)
3Sivan
4 Tammuz
5 Av
6 Elul
7 Tishrei
8 Cheshvan
9 Kislev
10 Tevet
11 Shevat
12 Adar (29 days - "Adar" preceding Nisan (I or II) always only 29)

Ask me what all that means and I'm going to smack you Didymus...

v/r

Q

[didymus]

well you can put your dukes down Q, i wasn't going to ask you. I am not very familiar with these months and dates. the information i receive is from jewish scholars. They claim there is a clear issue with Jesus being crucified and tried during a passover feast and holiday. they believe this never would have transpired as told in the gospels for this reason. I don't claim to be well versed in this area but have read some of their books. it's an interesting point.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Originally Posted by gluadys

What is more of a puzzle is why, when most European languages use a form of the Hebrew term for passover as the name of the Christian festival (Fr. Paques, Ital. Pascua, etc.) English ended up using the name of a pagan goddess.

Wandering for a moment back to the OP, German also uses a related term (Ostern) - not surprising, as she was a Teutonic goddess. What might be an odder question is why while two Germanic languages use a Germanic term, the others I am familiar with use a word derived from the Hebrew (Danish paaske, Dutch Pasen).

We now return you to your regularly scheduled tangent.

[dauer]

If you would like to know the Jewish date, check out this site:

http://www.jewfaq.org/current.htm

The Gregorian calendar differs from the Jewish one so the date's not the same every year.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Thank you for the great participation!

Originally Posted by Didymus

I give, when is it?

I just spent a little time in my Strong’s trying to look it up, and all of the key words have so many references I can’t find the one I’m looking for right now. It’s really late and I just finished a double shift, so I’m going to have to go by memory. It’s been a long time, so I am open to correction.

Many cultures from the period of time in question, the beginning of the institution of Passover, and even later, began their New Year at the Spring Equinox. I have heard the concept in general called “Judicial Astrology”, but one could also call it applied astronomy. The camp of the Israelites was oriented by the cardinal points; North, South, East and West. When the sun rose directly East, on the day of equal length day and night, it marked the beginning of the New Year. Using solar reckoning, Nisan 1 was the Spring Equinox. In the Temple period, as I recall, the New Year was marked by the sun rising directly framed by the East Gate of the city wall and entering the Temple through the Eastern door. This only happened perfectly at that specific time of year, and again at the Autumnal Equinox. Passover, originally was reckoned from the Spring Equinox. I am open to correction by a more learned Jewish person, but that is my understanding.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nisan and Rosh Chodesh Nisan - In Relation to Other Months of the Year
1 Nisan (30 days - Rosh Chodesh always 1 day)
2 Iyar (29 days)
3Sivan
4 Tammuz
5 Av
6 Elul
7 Tishrei
8 Cheshvan
9 Kislev
10 Tevet
11 Shevat
12 Adar (29 days - "Adar" preceding Nisan (I or II) always only 29)

Now, first I have to qualify by saying I am not much more versed than the rest of you here, but I do have a bit to add. This, by my understanding, is the lunar reckoning still in use today, but not originally. Count 12 times 29 (moon cycles from new moon to new moon), plus one (Rosh Chodesh), and you get 349 days. The problem is there are 365.25 days (approx) to a solar year, leaving a shortfall of 16.25 days. Which is why, I presume, that the lunar calendar wanders all over the place compared to the solar calendar. This is also why every so often a 13th month is added to "catch up" so to speak. Islam uses the same or similar method, but the beginning date is from the time of Mohammed.

Originally Posted by Didymus

They claim there is a clear issue with Jesus being crucified and tried during a passover feast and holiday. they believe this never would have transpired as told in the gospels for this reason.

Right they are to take issue with the assumption that Christ was crucified on Passover. The Torah gives explicit instructions pertaining to the proper observance, including not being defiled (made unclean) by the body of a dead person. Which is why I have never thought Christ died on Passover, he died as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the afternoon before Passover. Jesus’ uncle Joseph was in a hurry to claim the body and have it buried properly in time to be legitimately observant.

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Wandering for a moment back to the OP, German also uses a related term (Ostern) - not surprising, as she was a Teutonic goddess. What might be an odder question is why while two Germanic languages use a Germanic term, the others I am familiar with use a word derived from the Hebrew (Danish paaske, Dutch Pasen).

Actually, this was brought up by another earlier:

Originally Posted by Gluadys

What is more of a puzzle is why, when most European languages use a form of the Hebrew term for passover as the name of the Christian festival (Fr. Paques, Ital. Pascua, etc.) English ended up using the name of a pagan goddess.

And it does raise some interesting issues. I have heard some scholars suggest that the Saxons derived their name from “Isaac’s sons”, a reference to at least some of the lost tribes. While the Germanic tribes may likely have descended from the (disowned) tribe of Dan, evidenced by many of the Teutonic place names throughout Europe, such as Danmark and the Danube River.

Originally Posted by Dauer

The Gregorian calendar differs from the Jewish one so the date's not the same every year.

Yes, but the Gregorian calendar is a correction of the Julian calendar. When Pope Gregory gave the “go-ahead” for the calendrical correction calculated by the Jesuit Monk Christopher Clavius, it called for (as I recall) something like ten days being removed from the calendar. I don’t have my notes handy, but I seem to recall this took place in the Catholic countries in the mid-1500’s. England was a bit slow adopting the correction, but came around in the 1700’s. It was almost 1900 before Russia finally adopted the Gregorian correction.

The traditional Jewish calendar now in use is a lunar calendar, but my understanding is that prior to the Babylonian captivity, this was not so. Again, I could stand correction, but this is my understanding.

A question I have for you, dauer, is: when and why is the Jewish New Year now in September?

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

While the Germanic tribes may likely have descended from the (disowned) tribe of Dan, evidenced by many of the Teutonic place names throughout Europe, such as Danmark and the Danube River.

Well, that sounds fine, but in lots of European languages the Danube is called something very un-Dan-like: Donau (German), Dounavis (Greek), Dunav (Serbian), to name a few. I really don't think Danube is a Teutonic place name at all, but the French version of an eastern European one, borrowed by English-speakers.

[didymus]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Right they are to take issue with the assumption that Christ was crucified on Passover. The Torah gives explicit instructions pertaining to the proper observance, including not being defiled (made unclean) by the body of a dead person. Which is why I have never thought Christ died on Passover, he died as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the afternoon before Passover. Jesus’ uncle Joseph was in a hurry to claim the body and have it buried properly in time to be legitimately observant.

So then what do you make of the discrepancy in the Bible. Synoptics claim he was crucified on the 15 Nisan. Gospel of John says Nisan 14. If it was indeed on Nisan 14 wouldn't this rule out the last supper as a passover meal?

[dauer]

The traditional Jewish calendar now in use is a lunar calendar, but my understanding is that prior to the Babylonian captivity, this was not so. Again, I could stand correction, but this is my understanding.

This is a little complicated because the calendar that was in use is unusual in that it did not have a fixed date for the beginning of the year. It was defined by the barley growth, whenever that happened. It stopped during the Babylonian Exile and the names of the months on the Jewish calendar now are actually Babylonian. Tamuz is the name of one month. The most information you will find on that online I think is from the Karaites, who returned to the system of sighting the barley. But they can also be very polemical at times. I don't remember which site is very polemical and which site is a little less. If you explore their site you can find out a little more about Rosh Hashanah changing too, although it might be a bit slanted.

http://www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml

The calendar in use now is both lunar and solar. I'm not sure if it was always that way or not.

A question I have for you, dauer, is: when and why is the Jewish New Year now in September?

When exactly? The sages said many days were new years, just for different things like the new year for kings and festivals, the new year for tithing animals, the new year for the year, the new year for trees. There was apparently a Babylonian coronation festival at the same time of year and that could be what made this new year so important. But what I found on an Orthodox site I will quote:

The year begins on different dates for different purposes: in Nisan, for dating a king's reign; in Elul, for giving tithes from cattle; in Tishrei, for numbering the years and for giving tithes from crops; in Shevat, for giving tithes from the fruit of trees (Mishnah Rosh Ha-Shanah 1:1). We number the months of the year from Nisan, but the number of the year itself changes in Tishrei. The fact that Nisan is the first month is explicit in the written Torah (Ex. 12:2), and the fact that the years are counted from Tishrei is in the oral Torah (an undisputed statement in the Mishnah).

http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=86

But I think it was something that developed gradually from what was happening in the time of the Torah, to the time of Ezra, and then forward. If there was a specific reason for the change, I'm not familiar with it.

Dauer

[dauer]

I read somewhere that the word used for bread relating to the last supper refers to regular bread and not unleavened bread, and while this could be a translational error, I wonder if this might also suggest it was the day before Pesach? Maybe they were trying to get rid of the leftover hametz before Pesach?