Ecclesiastes

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Cage

I keep reading "Fear God", but why are we to 'fear' him? I thought perfect Love cast out fear...

1 John 4:18
18. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Matthew 22:37-38

37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.

This seems a bit contradictory; I don't understand why God would even want us to 'fear' him, if it is possible to keep the first, and great commandment through Love.

~Cage~

See Hebrews 10:26-39, for those who knowingly reject God's loving kindness....

[mee]

Originally Posted by Cage

I keep reading "Fear God", but why are we to 'fear' him? I thought perfect Love cast out fear...

1 John 4:18
18. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Matthew 22:37-38

37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.

This seems a bit contradictory; I don't understand why God would even want us to 'fear' him, if it is possible to keep the first, and great commandment through Love.

~Cage~

LOL this is not a morbid fear of God ,but the same sort of fear that we feel towards a loving father , we would not want to displease a loving father by doing things that we know he would not like us to do. so yes ,as the verse you quoted says , we love God by listening to his guidence, and we use our mind to do this. to love God means to be attentive to his instructions, in the bible.
The most beneficial teachings for us now , are those that reflect the wisdom of the "one shepherd," Jehovah God (12:9-12) and Jesus is the one who reflects the teachings of Jehovah God, that is why Jehovah said to listen to him

[China Cat Sunflower]

Ecc 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
Ecc 1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
Ecc 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
Ecc 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
Ecc 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
Ecc 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
Ecc 1:8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Ecc 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Ecc 1:12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecc 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecc 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
Ecc 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
Ecc 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

O.K., so the first interesting thing to me is the narrator. He says he is the son of David and was king of Jerusalem, but he's parodying, or caricaturizing the role of the "preacher." But this is an entirely different kind of preacher than some wild-eyed prophet from the wilderness preaching doom and gloom and apocolyptic consequences.

I imagine the narrator as a late middle-aged man who, having satiated every urge, having lived the good life to its fullest, having indulged every fantasy; ridden all the rides at the fair, so to speak, as many times as he ever wanted, is now bored and wondering what it was all good for. He's seen everything, done everything, persued knowlege and wisdom to their ultimately ends, and now finds that meaning and satisfaction lie in the process not in the achievement because there is no ultimate achievement that can be held in one's hands at the end. It's all just grains of sand that slip through the fingers: vanity.

So what can this "preacher" leave as a legacy of wisdom? Considering the richness of his life experience, what does he have to say for his life that is unique and worthwhile to preserve? This is what he's asking himself.

Chris

[mee]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

O.K., so the first interesting thing to me is the narrator. He says he is the son of David and was king of Jerusalem, but he's parodying, or caricaturizing the role of the "preacher." But this is an entirely different kind of preacher than some wild-eyed prophet from the wilderness preaching doom and gloom and apocolyptic consequences.

I imagine the narrator as a late middle-aged man who, having satiated every urge, having lived the good life to its fullest, having indulged every fantasy; ridden all the rides at the fair, so to speak, as many times as he ever wanted, is now bored and wondering what it was all good for. He's seen everything, done everything, persued knowlege and wisdom to their ultimately ends, and now finds that meaning and satisfaction lie in the process not in the achievement because there is no ultimate achievement that can be held in one's hands at the end. It's all just grains of sand that slip through the fingers: vanity.

So what can this "preacher" leave as a legacy of wisdom? Considering the richness of his life experience, what does he have to say for his life that is unique and worthwhile to preserve? This is what he's asking himself.

Chris

i think he is saying,
The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man.
What shall we conclude, then? Well, what about the conclusion that Solomon reached? He saw, or examined, "all the works that were done under the sun, and, look! everything was vanity and a striving after wind." (Ecclesiastes 1:14) We do not find in the book of Ecclesiastes the words of a cynic or a disgruntled man. They are part of God’s inspired Word and worthy of our consideration.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

i think he is saying,
The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man.
What shall we conclude, then? Well, what about the conclusion that Solomon reached? He saw, or examined, "all the works that were done under the sun, and, look! everything was vanity and a striving after wind." (Ecclesiastes 1:14) We do not find in the book of Ecclesiastes the words of a cynic or a disgruntled man. They are part of God’s inspired Word and worthy of our consideration.

NO. That is not what is being said. What is being said is that everything under the sun has already been done. Without God, nothing is new, and nothing MATTERS. Here he owns everything, has everything, can do anything he wants, and it isn't enough without God in his life. It is all garbage. That is what the wisest man on earth to be or ever to be is telling us...

Nothing matters without God at our side.

that is all.

Q

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Interesting, I find agreement in interpretation within what all of you have written.

For the most part, I find myself in agreement with China Cat, except:

but he's parodying, or caricaturizing the role of the "preacher." But this is an entirely different kind of preacher than some wild-eyed prophet from the wilderness preaching doom and gloom and apocolyptic consequences.

Forgive me, but since when has it been a requirement to be wild-eyed in order to be a preacher? I do not see a caricature, although I agree with the balance of your summary. I do think it is a late middle aged man looking back on his life with an eye towards leaving a bit of sage advice for his offspring and any others who would listen. A metaphorical statement of his wisdom in itself, he shared this and other wisdom writings not only with his progeny (didn't just "keep the wealth in the family"), he shared this advice with his nation. Too bad so few of them listened, even to this day. Not a poke at any specific group, but at all equally who claim any descent figurative or literal from the nation of Israel (from a time when both houses were still united!).

The only thing I have as a minor disagreement with in Q's interpretation, is that I don't believe it is all garbage. Like I said earlier, some forms and kinds of knowledge, wisdom and understanding are necessary. Are there not verses that speak of the value of riches, at least as many as speak against the concerns of riches? Wealth is a blessing. I might be inclined to believe it is a mixed blessing, but it is a blessing.

The vanity part of wealth is that we can't take it with us. So we may as well be wise with it, for the betterment of those we love.

Sure. we can get to heaven just fine without wealth. But how will it be for those we love left behind here to deal without it? Oh, they will probably scrape by. But wouldn't it be so much nicer if it is our ability to provide, to make life just a little easier for those we love, even after we are gone?

Of course, now I am sounding like a life insurance salesman...but the basic idea extends, even beyond the concept of wealth.

We are permitted to enjoy the good things in life, that is our portion for going through what can be a rather miserable existence. We can have nice things, as long as we are not caught up in them (putting them before G-d). But in the end, we cannot take them with us, so we might as well do something profitable for the benefit of those we care about. So no, I don't think everything is garbage.

But then, who am I but another fellow traveller trying to understand the wisdom left to us by someone who cared enough to write us these words.

[China Cat Sunflower]

In rereading Ecclesiastes I'm struck by how much the writings of such notable figures as Thoreau and R. W. Emerson have in common with the author of an OT book. I'm thinking specifically of Thoreau's question of who is master, the livestock or the farmer? He observed that the farmers life seemed to be harnessed to providing for the animals, and noted how much more spacious the animals quarters were than the farmer's. At the end of the second chapter of Ecclesiastes the author muses that all the work and wealth of the sinner is stored up for until his death, and thereafter given to the righteous man. That reminded me of Emerson's essay on compensation.

Chris

[mee]

This book gives us a lesson in true values, what is the best way to expend time and energy? Would it be beneficial to make pleasure activities our main goal? Should we strive to accumulate material wealth or to achieve a celebrated reputation? What pursuits in life are of the greatest value?

Fine guidance on this matter can be found in the Bible book of Ecclesiastes. in it are found "the words of the congregator, the son of David the king in Jerusalem." (Eccl. 1:1, 12) Evidently "the congregator" is King Solomon, who became internationally famous for wisdom. The book of Ecclesiastes contains his counsel both on things that are worthless and on those that are of true value

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

This book gives us a lesson in true values, what is the best way to expend time and energy? Would it be beneficial to make pleasure activities our main goal? Should we strive to accumulate material wealth or to achieve a celebrated reputation? What pursuits in life are of the greatest value?

Fine guidance on this matter can be found in the Bible book of Ecclesiastes. in it are found "the words of the congregator, the son of David the king in Jerusalem." (Eccl. 1:1, 12) Evidently "the congregator" is King Solomon, who became internationally famous for wisdom. The book of Ecclesiastes contains his counsel both on things that are worthless and on those that are of true value

I think what the book means is take pleasure in the simple things of life. Don't go looking for greater and greater things, because they aren't really there. One man, can search the entire Universe and find nothing that satisfies him for long. Another man can find the wonders of the universe right in his own back yard. And the trick is to ask God to show him the wonders that God wishes him to see...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I think what the book means is take pleasure in the simple things of life. Don't go looking for greater and greater things, because they aren't really there. One man, can search the entire Universe and find nothing that satisfies him for long. Another man can find the wonders of the universe right in his own back yard. And the trick is to ask God to show him the wonders that God wishes him to see...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Hmm, that brings to mind one of Einstein's quotes:

The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. It was the experience of mystery -- even if mixed with fear -- that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds: it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity. In this sense, and only this sense, I am a deeply religious man.
--Albert Einstein
Living Philosophies, "The World As I See It" (1931)

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Hmm, that brings to mind one of Einstein's quotes:

Hmmm, maybe it is a "Pisces" thingy...

Seriously, I made you think of Einstein? (I won't get a big head, honest...)

whoooaa (puff chest) lol

v/r

E= mcQ'd

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hmmm, maybe it is a "Pisces" thingy...

Seriously, I made you think of Einstein? (I won't get a big head, honest...)

whoooaa (puff chest) lol

v/r

E= mcQ'd

LOL! Perhaps you might be more comfortable with Michelangelo's interpretation?

[Dor]

12:11 The words of the wise (are) as goads, and as nails fastened (by) the masters of assemblies, (which) are given from one shepherd.

I tend to like Albert Barnes take on this verse..first from Noah Webster's 1611 Dictionary. Goad.n.A pointed instrument used to stimulate a beast to action.

Words of wise men are as goads as they drive us into action, nails because they remain fixed in the memory...masters of assemblies are teachers/preachers...and one shepard is Christ himself

[Jeannot]

Just to chip in as a latecomer, if I may. The whole duty of man is the worship of God--everything else is vanity by comparison. Things come and go; God remains (along with faith, hope, and charity).

As Jesus said, You cannot serve God and Mammon (the world). And, Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Kierkegaard's take on that: Purity of heart is to will one thing. (He actually wrote a book with this title)