Entangled atoms!

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

The difference between you and I, so far as I can tell, is that you have determined that the psychological or cognitive underpinnings of the human mind drive an illusory reality that we can escape through materialism or objectivism.

!! OMG !! Trying to talk me into silence again!! (thats green with envy over typing ability... it maybe time I loaded that 'touch-type tutor disc I have kicking about somewhere)

Not that we can fully escape but certainly it is the best tool for the job of knowing what is real in a measurable/repeatable sense. As belief is a matter of faith rather than measurement It cannot be easily balanced for. It is too amorphous to control. And it often has the tendency to seep in despite ones best efforts to keep it out. Best to dispense with it altogether is my take. You believe I cannot really do that where as I think I can, maybe not always or comprehensively, but I can to the degree that it gives me meaningful advantage on my quest.
We are not just the sum of our knowledge, we are the sum of our interpretation of that knowledge. We each seek to extract some sort of objective rational from that sum but only by using objectively sourced data can you hope to be sure that data is not just wishful thinking or whatever. I believe a biological connection exists that unites all life on Earth. Communicating with trees or loved ones on the other side of the world may well be possible and real but rather than look for, (or more precisely stop looking for, as belief implies that search is over), explanations in metaphysics I prefer to concentrate on the mechanisms that might physically exist, be measurable, quantifiable and ultimately enhanceable.
We have only just begun to glimpse the quantum world and the heady magic it predicted and science verified may reveal levels of our existence that traditionally have been the realm of mysticism. Time and space are things which we only have tentative theories to describe, let alone explain. We are pretty sure of our temporal existence only as physical lifespan. Some physicists argue that this is only illusion. I have contemplated the question that naturally follows that belief, "if it is illusion what is super-reality ? ", at length. The process is mind-numbingly difficult. It is not merely the removing oneself from a human paradigm it involves trying to clear yourself of all mental perception and try to see things in the physical interaction of matter, space and time. Not being a physicist I cannot use equations so I developed my own symbolism to assign principles. I believe this is no different to what people, such as you, turn into your belief system. Each of us has an irrepressible need to understand our environment. Religious belief of your type boils down to a simple mechanism for labelling and thus having some power over unknowns and is labelled accordingly. I do not do that. I fully accept that I know nothing. I only have inevitably flawed opinions. (I would love to divert now to Chaos Theory but resist!). Despite how my posting may appear I think I manage never to forget that.
Our reasons for living the lives we live and the altruism we display are really a separate issue. I have been in jail and had bones broken for mine. I have set up two businesses that were as 'green' as green gets. I have been involved in, contributed time, effort and my own hard earned money into many charities working both locally and internationally. But I am still profoundly flawed and self-contradictory. I do make trade-off's and indulge in hypocrisy. So I could still do more. What I have seen is how, despite the free market propaganda, hard it is to make any difference. And what I have felt is that is always worth it anyway. What good we are for the world starts in our own hearts.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Tao Equus

Our reasons for living the lives we live and the altruism we display are really a separate issue. I have been in jail and had bones broken for mine. I have set up two businesses that were as 'green' as green gets. I have been involved in, contributed time, effort and my own hard earned money into many charities working both locally and internationally. But I am still profoundly flawed and self-contradictory. I do make trade-off's and indulge in hypocrisy. So I could still do more. What I have seen is how, despite the free market propaganda, hard it is to make any difference. And what I have felt is that is always worth it anyway. What good we are for the world starts in our own hearts.

That is a profoundly true statement, Tao, the basis upon which any religion worth its weight ought to abide by.

Thank you, you've made my day.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Dondi

That is a profoundly true statement, Tao, the basis upon which any religion worth its weight ought to abide by.

Thank you, you've made my day.

Your praise warms me too Thank you.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

!! OMG !! Trying to talk me into silence again!! (thats green with envy over typing ability... it maybe time I loaded that 'touch-type tutor disc I have kicking about somewhere)

LOL- sorry- I began typing at age 10 and was up to 80 wpm by high school, so I type about as fast as I can talk and think. LOL

Not that we can fully escape but certainly it is the best tool for the job of knowing what is real in a measurable/repeatable sense. As belief is a matter of faith rather than measurement It cannot be easily balanced for. It is too amorphous to control. And it often has the tendency to seep in despite ones best efforts to keep it out. Best to dispense with it altogether is my take.

I agree that materialism and objectivism has its usefulness, but only bounded by an understanding of its limitations. Otherwise, it becomes yet another trap of belief that one has a handle on things, when one actually does not. This is especially apparent because materialism and objectivism rely on our methodology and tools for measurement, and these change over time. All systems of thought must change as we learn; I advocate a maximally open mind so as to not lose out on something useful- from the past, from the present, and potentiality for the future. Thus, I don't think dispensing with anything that is inherently part of the human condition and past is the best idea. I suppose I liken retention of cultural diversity to seed banks- you never know when you might need to pull something out from the past to address the present. Diversity in evolution = better chance of survival when new problems arise.

Humans adapt primarily through culture. So cultural diversity = better chance of survival for humanity.

You believe I cannot really do that where as I think I can, maybe not always or comprehensively, but I can to the degree that it gives me meaningful advantage on my quest.

Yet I can claim the same thing- I cannot do it comprehensively or always, but it gives me meaningful advantage on my quest. And despite our disagreements on certain issues, neither you nor I can prove that our own way of doing this is more valid or gives us greater advantage.

We are not just the sum of our knowledge, we are the sum of our interpretation of that knowledge.

The two influence each other, and further... we are the sum of our ways of learning to learn knowledge. Some of these things are inherent limitations based on differences in how our minds work (personality, intelligence, learning styles) and some of these things are culturally constructed.

Communicating with trees or loved ones on the other side of the world may well be possible and real but rather than look for, (or more precisely stop looking for, as belief implies that search is over), explanations in metaphysics I prefer to concentrate on the mechanisms that might physically exist, be measurable, quantifiable and ultimately enhanceable.

How is that different from what I said before? I described the experience and offered the open-ended discussion that while we can't explain these things scientifically right now, I suspect these things are natural (not supernatural) and that one day we might be able to scientifically understand them. So I fail to see how that is metaphysical explanation. As Brian has been saying, we use metaphysical explanation because it's the best way we currently have for passing on the information about stuff science hasn't explained yet. But it's not like that is the end of explanation, which I fully acknowledged.

What I argued against is the idea that the experience itself (i.e., the observational data some people have of communicating with a tree or a loved one) should be dismissed outright as imaginary, simply because some other person has not experienced it. I was not arguing against the idea that these things are natural, to the contrary, I was arguing for a natural origin.

So I guess at this point, we must agree to agree. LOL

We have only just begun to glimpse the quantum world and the heady magic it predicted and science verified may reveal levels of our existence that traditionally have been the realm of mysticism. Time and space are things which we only have tentative theories to describe, let alone explain.

That was exactly my point (and I think Brian's, as well). Just last night I watched a show on time and black holes, and the physicists were saying that at one point, everyone thought those who believed in black holes were just making up imaginary things. Until they figured out a way to tackle the question scientifically.

Science generally proceeds out of creative thought, and then breeds further creative thought. It doesn't happen on its own. Mysticism also proceeds out of creative thought, but from a different kind of intelligence and learning style. But this doesn't mean that mysticism has no grounding in reality, as physicists are finding. And in fact, much of mysticism moves away from explanation altogether in favor of experience and practical application. While a scientist would ask how something works, a mystic might ask what we do with the understanding (or what the understanding does to us).

We are pretty sure of our temporal existence only as physical lifespan. Some physicists argue that this is only illusion. I have contemplated the question that naturally follows that belief, "if it is illusion what is super-reality ? ", at length. The process is mind-numbingly difficult. It is not merely the removing oneself from a human paradigm it involves trying to clear yourself of all mental perception and try to see things in the physical interaction of matter, space and time. Not being a physicist I cannot use equations so I developed my own symbolism to assign principles. I believe this is no different to what people, such as you, turn into your belief system.

I don't have much of a belief system, to be honest. I have approximate understandings of how things work, which I see to be faulty but the best I have at present until further knowledge comes available. I have ideas and practices I've found that are useful in ordinary life, that have some sort of practical application.

But I've put the same sort of thought into this stuff that you're describing. I just perhaps do it in a different way, which I suspect is due in part to different personalities and types of intelligence (i.e., following Howard Gardner). The intuitive person tackles information as a gestalt while the sensory person tackles information as little bits of data to be assembled more consciously.

What I think is funny about this part of the discussion is that you admit to having your own symbolism for communication, yet you insist that your symbolism is something like a science and my symbolism is a belief system. Hee. I have readily accepted and communicated that any beliefs I have, I see as imperfect and changing as I gather more experience and information, as my own mind expands. So how is this different from what you're doing? I think it is in choice of symbol and not in overall process... You are uncomfortable with my choice of symbol because it is open to religion, while you choose one that is not. But the process does not seem to be any different.

Each of us has an irrepressible need to understand our environment. Religious belief of your type boils down to a simple mechanism for labelling and thus having some power over unknowns and is labelled accordingly.

Really? A simple mechanism for labeling? Or my best approximation (as I have stated clearly) for communication? I think the stuff I experience is anything but simple to describe or analyze, but one must attempt to communicate something if one is not a complete hermit. And this communication comes in some form that will depend, in part, on the other person's interpretation of it. Just as you consistently tell me "atheism isn't what you say it is!" I am consistently telling you "mysticism isn't what you say it is!" Oh, and I don't think I have power over much of anything. That isn't the point of my life. It is to accept what is, the flows of the universe. The only thing I could perhaps have power over is my own response, and to that end I do try. I can have influence over many things, but power implies the capacity to use force, and I have little if any of that.

I do not do that. I fully accept that I know nothing. I only have inevitably flawed opinions. (I would love to divert now to Chaos Theory but resist!). Despite how my posting may appear I think I manage never to forget that.

Ditto. As my regular disclaimers should uphold. Yet, somehow you come across to me as believing to have found THE TRUTH. And somehow I come across to you as the same!

But I am still profoundly flawed and self-contradictory.

Who isn't? I mean, I suppose maybe Jesus and the Buddha if you believe they existed, but flawed-ness seems to be part of humanity.

What I have seen is how, despite the free market propaganda, hard it is to make any difference. And what I have felt is that is always worth it anyway. What good we are for the world starts in our own hearts.

I completely agree, again.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by path of one

Science generally proceeds out of creative thought, and then breeds further creative thought. It doesn't happen on its own. Mysticism also proceeds out of creative thought, but from a different kind of intelligence and learning style. But this doesn't mean that mysticism has no grounding in reality, as physicists are finding. And in fact, much of mysticism moves away from explanation altogether in favor of experience and practical application. While a scientist would ask how something works, a mystic might ask what we do with the understanding (or what the understanding does to us).

I happened to come across this just today which I find fascinating in relating to the thread, and which seems to bear witness to what you are saying here. I've highlighted points that I feel are pertinent to the discussion. Excerpts from an NDE of a Muslim woman:

Originally Posted by NDERF

...Ever since then, my whole life has changed. I began going for my dreams and ambitions in life without any fears to TRY new things out which has brought me very far in life and career achievements. But most of all I began sensing or reading people much easier, I could sense their pains, angers, frustrations, and sorrows, as well as their hopes. Sometimes when being close to people I could see visions of their past and sometimes if I concentrate hard enough...I could even see their futures. At some times I could sense what people called or deemed as 'restless spirits' or 'ghost' at places which some people deemed 'haunted' even before they tell me these places were considered 'haunted'.
Ironically, the emotional output coming from these 'restless spirits' seem very much similar to the emotional outputs which I could sense from 'living' people when it comes to seeing or sensing their futures.
This special 'senses' has helped me understand human beings, about life, God and creation. The more I understood about Human Beings, the more I understood about life and believed that there was a God, that He existed, and that there is a life after death and Angels. Today I try not to be racially or even religiously biased even though I do very much believe in my own faith, but I believe that doing good to one another as human beings is much more important as this is what God wants and I do believe that EVERYTHING in life happens for a reason and that I was given this...special 'gift' to HELP those around me.

Did you have a sense of knowing special knowledge, universal order and/or purpose? Yes That EVERYthing in LIFE here on earth happens for a reason, there ARE some amounts of Scientific Explanations for what we call the 'supernatural' but science has not yet fully discovered the body of knowledge required to unravel such mysteries. There are greater powers at play which moves our destiny...I believe in what 'physics' call 'The Butterfly Effect', which is how some things or events within our lives our put into motion. Some religions call it destiny or fate, while other's may call it Karma, but it is interrelated. There are even a set of rules on how 'hardships' happens in our lives as each tests given to us is normally targeted specific at our own behavioral weaknesses and the 'stakes' of these tests in life are normally high as the stakes are normally the things we desire, cherish, need or love in life where we have to make a 'choice'. The wrong choice and mindset causes us to suffer emotionally inside. The right choices makes us stronger and even much better and often 'changes' us as people along with our perceptions in life. The tests require patience, persistence, intelligence and courage most often to do what is right.

Did you have any psychic, paranormal or other special gifts following the experience you did not have prior to the experience? Yes Every time I walk around in public, all I sense is anger, sorrow, frustration, fears, hopes, prayers, regrets in life from the people around me. I could feel what some people described as 'aura energy' and each human beings aura energy signature is unique and connected to his/her heart. Women are much more easier to sense as they're more emotionally sensitive than men. Men have a lot of frustrations and anger while women have a lot of sorrows and fears, which is why I believe sometimes it's hard to communicate between men and women.
But every religion talks about these 'aura' energies...in Malay they call it 'Tenaga Batin', the Chinese call it 'Chi', while the Japanese may call it 'Chakra'. But these energies are very real and fluctuate a pattern according to a person's moods or experiences in life thus these energies in-fact tell a 'story' about one person's life coming from their hearts. Usually in times of fears or trauma, these bodily or aura energy emits a very strong wave which I believe somehow could transcend even time. For example when I was talking to my friend Linie over the phone...I told her to be careful, that her younger sister would take something very valuable from her table in the bedroom and she would become very angry. I tried calling her the next day to tell her not to be so angry. But 3 days later she confirmed to me that her 11 year old sister took her cell phone from her table without telling her and made a couple of phone calls. She got so upset that she told her mother...her mother slapped her sister on the face twice. What I sensed from the future in-fact was Linie's ANGER and her younger sister's TRAUMA and pain which echoed from the future. But these emotions which echo somehow seem very much familiar in their patterns which those from spirits which we call 'ghost' which also seemed 'trapped' in a particular place.

Source: Wan I's NDE

[citizenzen]

Maybe we should start a self-actualization movement where we first choke, then resuscitate one another in order to live better lives.

Look, everything she said is already common knowledge: live fearlessly, act with empathy, practice compassion. You don't need an NDE to know this. The hard part is to live it, to forgo merely indulging our sense pleasures and to search for something simpler yet deeper. But I don't mean begrudge you your source of inspiration. Mine was the Buddha, but if yours is this, then that's fine. Just use it.

People are so easily distracted. The most important problem in our lives is not divining other peoples pasts or futures, it's seeing ego for what it is, eradicating ignorance, cultivating wisdom and compassion in our thoughts and actions. Do that first and then tell me how important it is that you feel odd standing here, or there. Do that first and then tell me how important it is that my aura is blue or green.

[earl]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Maybe we should start a self-actualization movement where we first choke, then resuscitate one another in order to live better lives.

Look, everything she said is already common knowledge: live fearlessly, act with empathy, practice compassion. You don't need an NDE to know this. The hard part is to live it, to forgo merely indulging our sense pleasures and to search for something simpler yet deeper. But I don't mean begrudge you your source of inspiration. Mine was the Buddha, but if yours is this, then that's fine. Just use it.

People are so easily distracted. The most important problem in our lives is not divining other peoples pasts or futures, it's seeing ego for what it is, eradicating ignorance, cultivating wisdom and compassion in our thoughts and actions. Do that first and then tell me how important it is that you feel odd standing here, or there. Do that first and then tell me how important it is that my aura is blue or green.

Yes, cultivating wisdom and compassion is what it's all about whether one is following a set spiritual path to achieve such or not. What is interesting to read about certain NDE's is that for some it has the sort of far-reaching profound effects as noted here. It seems that we can intellectually agree that such insights into what's important are true, but the defenses of the human heart-mind are such that often no amount of "agreement" will move us out them and that it takes being catapulted "out of ourselves" to truly "get it." OK, now, Tao you inveterate skeptic, NDE's are always tough for your crowd aren't they? earl

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

People are so easily distracted. The most important problem in our lives is not divining other peoples pasts or futures, it's seeing ego for what it is, eradicating ignorance, cultivating wisdom and compassion in our thoughts and actions. Do that first and then tell me how important it is that you feel odd standing here, or there. Do that first and then tell me how important it is that my aura is blue or green.

I agree. However, I find that through sensing the sentience of many other beings and places, I recognize my own impermanance and smallness. I also expand my consciousness to include all beings. I did this long before I first could read the Buddha's writings.

So I think my point is that just because an experience like I describe is secondary for you, doesn't mean it isn't a pathway toward the very ideals you describe for me. I agree that working toward loving all beings, toward peace, toward joy... these things are the primary purpose of life as I see it. But I don't think my inherently mystical sense of reality is a barrier to this. Rather, it has led me to it and reinforced these purposes again and again. I fail to see how scoffing at another person's sense of reality and being-ness in the world, particularly if it has led to something of value in their lives, is useful, compassionate, or wise.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Maybe we should start a self-actualization movement where we first choke, then resuscitate one another in order to live better lives.

Look, everything she said is already common knowledge: live fearlessly, act with empathy, practice compassion. You don't need an NDE to know this. The hard part is to live it, to forgo merely indulging our sense pleasures and to search for something simpler yet deeper. But I don't mean begrudge you your source of inspiration. Mine was the Buddha, but if yours is this, then that's fine. Just use it.

People are so easily distracted. The most important problem in our lives is not divining other peoples pasts or futures, it's seeing ego for what it is, eradicating ignorance, cultivating wisdom and compassion in our thoughts and actions. Do that first and then tell me how important it is that you feel odd standing here, or there. Do that first and then tell me how important it is that my aura is blue or green.

I don't need an NDE or another's testimony to know this. It isn't my primary source of inspiration, my relationship with God is. I desire to live with compassion and love for others, and as a matter of recourse, that relationship with God actually provides me with that sense of love that I so need to feel compassion for others.

What these NDEs do is to provide some insight into possibilities that may give some direction of how we can apply this love. The recurring theme in a majority of NDEs is that we need to love one another.

However, this particular NDE I posted because there is a scientific angle with we might possibily explore. If it is indeed true that mystical places have a scientific explanation we don't undertand yet, wouldn't it be in our best interest to try and discover it? It is intriguing to me that this person has gained a sense of empathy that enables her to feel these energies or emotions to people or places, apparently to used as a gift. What if through science we could find out what the mechanism is that enables one to do this? And that we can apply methods that will allow us to help others as well? Do entangled atoms play a part?

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by earl

OK, now, Tao you inveterate skeptic, NDE's are always tough for your crowd aren't they? earl

I won't wait for Tao.

The problem that I have with NDEs is the first part... the "near" part.

Let me give you an example in the form of a little story...

I was walking in the middle of a road one dark night. Up ahead, in the distance, I saw two small lights. These lights increased in size and I could hear a faint roar which quickly grew louder. Soon I was blinded by the light and deafened by the sound. The ground shook and a great wind nearly knocked me off my feet as the car flew by me, missing me by an inch.

It was a Near Car Experience. Now I know what it's like to be hit by an automobile.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by earl

OK, now, Tao you inveterate skeptic, NDE's are always tough for your crowd aren't they? earl

Yup, and we do not believe the film "Cocoon" was a documentary

[earl]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

I won't wait for Tao.

The problem that I have with NDEs is the first part... the "near" part.

Let me give you an example in the form of a little story...

I was walking in the middle of a road one dark night. Up ahead, in the distance, I saw two small lights. These lights increased in size and I could hear a faint roar which quickly grew louder. Soon I was blinded by the light and deafened by the sound. The ground shook and a great wind nearly knocked me off my feet as the car flew by me, missing me by an inch.

It was a Near Car Experience. Now I know what it's like to be hit by an automobile.

CZ- as to any speculations of the "afterlife" based on NDE's, you're right that it is constrained due to the "near" part. On the other hand, for some possible reports for those who may have been there, done that, you might do a search of this site, (or the internet), for some postings I made regarding "Timestream." earl

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by earl

On the other hand, for some possible reports for those who may have been there, done that, you might do a search of this site, (or the internet), for some postings I made regarding "Timestream." earl

www.timestream.com

www.timestream.net

www.timestream.org

Uhhh... a little more help here, please.

[earl]

Here ya go CZ, earl:
Netscape Search

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by earl

Here ya go CZ, earl:

Thank you Earl.

"Instrumental Transcommunication (ITC), a term used to cover all the supposedly paranormal messages received through electronic media such as tape recorders, radios and computers, is a more objective way – in keeping with the modern technological age - of communicating with other levels of existence. However, it is not only its strong technological component that makes ITC more valid than other methods of communicating with these levels, it is because the proof it offers of their existence comes in a material concrete form that renders it particularly appropriate for our material physical world. We can say in fact that ITC allows those in the next world to communicate with us in a language that the majority of the people of this world – particularly the people of the Western world who have been taught by modern science to accept only material realities – can understand."

Earl, I checked out the site and listened to some samples. Let's just say that I'm unconvinced and leave it at that.

I like how they say in the paragraph included above: "We can say in fact that ITC allows those in the next world to communicate with us..."

They certainly sound pretty sure of themselves.

I'll bet they've already prepared their Nobel Prize acceptance speeches. It's such an honor.